Upcoming Experience Changes

Discussion in 'General Discussion' started by Torven, Jun 24, 2020.

  1. Pithy

    Pithy People Like Me

    Messages:
    1,624
    Thanks as always for your attention to detail, Torven, and for sharing those details. I know this stuff takes tons of time and effort!

    That's really interesting about the PBAE-specific exp adjustments. I'd never heard of those either, but there's a helluva lot I don't know about EQ exp mechanics. All I ever had to go off of was how fast or slow different camps felt, heh. From a game design perspective, though, it makes sense that Sony would've taken steps to moderate PBAE spells. I'm not sure which Verant dev initially suggested putting in spells that can hit an infinite number of targets, but presumably they weren't paying much attention to game balance.

    I have some questions about MLM -- just trying to understand your formula -- but I'll wait on that until the PBAE uproar settles down a bit :p
     
    Ravenwing likes this.
  2. Torven

    Torven I Feel Loved Staff Member

    Messages:
    2,260
    I have January 2002 logs of my AoEing Acrylia Caverns. Margin of error is higher there because estimating mob levels is difficult and some were light blue but exp gained was calculated to roughly 18.75m for the AAs. (if anything it was under, not higher) I had actually calculated that a long time ago and had no idea why it was off by so much. My log there is of 3 AAs. Kills were 429, 443 451.

    I examined my AK 126 kill video. It's 40% of an AA. Exp gained from the start of the killing was not seemingly higher, which more or less ruled out any sort of time based reduction.

    For Grimling Forest, I had powerleveled three characters there on AK: a magician, a necro, and a bard. The necro and bard were grouped and had OOR characters. They showed a reduction. The magician was not grouped, and showed no reduction. The likely explanation is that it only occurred when in a group, but I was also nuking on other characters and zoning and whatnot, so I can't be certain. Either way I'm not going to allow people to avoid the reduction because I happened to find a loophole and tell you about it.
     
  3. Dasidarius

    Dasidarius Member

    Messages:
    45
    The problem I have is this is pure speculation. I have never heard of, or seen, any mention of code specifically limiting xp rate. The supporting quotations are speculation as well.

    The solution Sony implemented was to make it difficult (The Grey/Acrylia) until they phased out PBAEs as, what I speculate was, a design choice.
     
  4. Torven

    Torven I Feel Loved Staff Member

    Messages:
    2,260
    Your ability to read two sentences of my posts and ignore the rest of it is amazing
     
    Cerberus likes this.
  5. Dasidarius

    Dasidarius Member

    Messages:
    45
    Respectfully, no. I read every word.

    The evidence presented does not support the conclusion. Arguably it supports a conclusion that something may have been implemented to reduce experience gain. But that could be explained by a number of factors including a change in ZEM.
     
  6. Tryfan

    Tryfan People Like Me

    Messages:
    318
    I mean you have the numbers and no one knows the numbers as they should be better than you. If what you do makes it more AKurate then so it shall be.

    I just wanted to make sure you had covered your bases and were sure it was actually targeted DIRECTLY at pbae and not a secondary effect of seeing a changing zem, changing mob levels, changing exp numbers for light blues, or other things that soe might have done (and DID do in other circumstances). Their patch notes often stated their intention not the thing they actually did so it could be easy to look at, say, that Grey patch note and conclude there was a nerf to pbae rather than a nerf to the actual zone itself (like what happened in AC).
     
  7. Pithy

    Pithy People Like Me

    Messages:
    1,624
    Oh hey, are there any logs of shakerpaging PoV floating around out there? I'm sure there are tons of logs of non-AE PoV kills. Could be a relevant data point for calibrating the PBAE penalty?
     
  8. Torven

    Torven I Feel Loved Staff Member

    Messages:
    2,260
    I'm not sure why this is so complicated for people.

    My patch note quote of the Grey was merely to show that it would not be beyond Sony to have nerfed AoE in some fashion. That's all. I have no Grey data to compare with. It's not the core of my argument; not even close. Ignore I ever mentioned that patch note if it helps you.

    For the math to work in FG, the ZEM would have to be 45. Furthermore ZEMs are sent over the wire in packets so we have either precise ZEMs or they sent over incorrect ZEMs and went out of they way to send over fake ZEMs instead of just not send them at all and FG just happened to have been absolutely terrible exp-- the worst in the entire game by a mile-- and nobody noticed this. So far I have yet to see any indications that our ZEMs (again, collected with packet collection) are incorrect.

    Regardless, I have direct comparisons of AK data to AK data of the reduction occurring and not occurring. Same zone, same NPCs, same ZEM, same levels.
     
  9. showstring

    showstring I Feel Loved

    Messages:
    1,923
    I'm also very curious how the game "knows" you're PBAEing, seems like something completely impossible to prove.

    Is it based on type of spell used? Does it affect all kills with those spells, even, say, two mobs? Bard PBAE included? Rain AE spells included?
    Is it based on # of kills in the same second? In the same 5 seconds? 10 seconds? Does it go back and subtract your exp from 9 seconds ago?
    Is it based solely on the killing blow of the NPC? Could you the mobs down to 10% with PBAE and finish off with another spell to avoid penalty?
     
    Last edited: Jun 24, 2020
  10. Torven

    Torven I Feel Loved Staff Member

    Messages:
    2,260
    Here, I made a copy of the spreadsheet I'm working with public:
    Code:
    [ Only registered users can see the bbcode. Click Here To Register... ]
    It's not at all cleaned up and has a lot of temp data and whatnot but there it is. That's not all my notes however
     
    Last edited: Jun 24, 2020
    Devour_Souls likes this.
  11. Darchon

    Darchon I Feel Loved

    Messages:
    2,548
    PC Client desynched for me whenever trying to do a massive pull like a shakerpage pull, however I do have logs from PoFire AE groups.

    1290 PBAE Kills in a group of 6 resulted in 74 AAs, roughly 17.5~ kills per AA or about 6% AA exp per kill, which is

    130 Charm Kills in a group of 3 resulted in 7 AAs, roughly 18.6~ kills per AA or about 5.4% AA exp per kill

    There is some slight difference since the PBAE group killed some higher level mobs occasionally but not often. However I believe Torven already said 60+ EXP doesn't have this, which appears correct.
     
    Pithy likes this.
  12. Lenas

    Lenas I Feel Loved Staff Member

    Messages:
    2,742
    Correct
     
  13. Torven

    Torven I Feel Loved Staff Member

    Messages:
    2,260
    Yes, I saw no reductions in my PoValor data, otherwise I'd have found this two years ago.

    Incidentally NPCs can have individual exp modifiers making certain NPCs in a zone grant more or less. Some PoF mobs have a bonus multiplier, as do certain frogs in PoStorms which is why people killed them so much.
     
    Foxboxx and Pithy like this.
  14. ToastedCookies

    ToastedCookies New Member

    Messages:
    10
    I’m noticing better experience killing blue wolves and mastodons in Western Wastes. So I’m thankful for that.
    Getting used to this new flash of light patch. Some of the mobs I was fighting started running away while in melee range (I think I was still able to hit them with Paladin and they would flee). Maybe I need to play with it more.
     
  15. Tuluvien

    Tuluvien People Like Me

    Messages:
    751
    I was under the impression we did not have class exp modifiers. Has this been changed, was that never the case? Am I crazy?
     
  16. Pithy

    Pithy People Like Me

    Messages:
    1,624
    As I read Torven's post, there are two class modifiers here: the classic-era hybrid penalties, and the Velious-era bonuses that cancelled them out. The net effect is that all classes gain exp at the same rate on TAKP, as they did in this era on Live and AK.
     
  17. Torven

    Torven I Feel Loved Staff Member

    Messages:
    2,260
    Supposedly rogues and warriors kept their class bonuses, but the other classes had their penalties (if applicable) removed
     
  18. Bragon

    Bragon People Like Me

    Messages:
    288
    i got questions

    upload_2020-6-24_20-48-30.png

    The top one wasn't done PBoaeing, why is the exp not closer to the expected outcome of 100 percent (i'm trrying to make sense of the sheet overall here, so i might be completley off)

    Why is the group bonus of 2.6 aplied to the bottom 2 samples? was there some out of range xp going on?

    Thanks, still combing through the sheet and trying to figure it all out.
     
  19. Dasidarius

    Dasidarius Member

    Messages:
    45
    I also notice the last two entries in AA have a group bonus of 2.6 (the solo magician) but group size of 1. On the leveling tab the group size 1 has a group bonus of 1.
     
  20. Torven

    Torven I Feel Loved Staff Member

    Messages:
    2,260
    I actually corrected that on my real sheet right after I posted the copy. That magician AAs should be 2.2, not 2.6. Those AAs immediately followed his leveling to 60. I think I just considered 4 people in group 'good enough' and didn't bother with 5. For the magician I was doing stuff like nuking on characters then running them out of exp range, so that may have influenced the results.

    The 5 and 6 man group kills have a better resolution and carry much more weight-- particularly because that is the typical gameplay. I have more tallied up 5 and 6 man group AAs from FG than is listed there, and they are consistent.

    On the level gain tab, the group size number isn't used. Group split is used instead. Again this spreadsheet was not really meant to be 'presented' and if I were planning on releasing it as some kind of formal deal I'd have cleaned it up significantly, but in the interests of transparency I just dumped it on you guys

    eqlog_Torvel_52.txt 186112 [Thu Sep 12 19:36:51 2013] To join the group, click on the 'FOLLOW' option, or 'DISBAND' to cancel.
    eqlog_Torvel_52.txt 186115 [Thu Sep 12 19:36:56 2013] You notify Torven that you agree to join the group.
    eqlog_Torvel_52.txt 186116 [Thu Sep 12 19:36:56 2013] You have joined the group.
    eqlog_Torvel_52.txt 189977 [Thu Sep 12 20:29:16 2013] Torrin has joined the group.
    eqlog_Torvel_52.txt 190026 [Thu Sep 12 20:49:40 2013] Torven has left the group.
    eqlog_Torvel_52.txt 190031 [Thu Sep 12 20:50:48 2013] Torven has joined the group.
    eqlog_Torvel_52.txt 194838 [Thu Sep 12 21:07:51 2013] You have gained a level! Welcome to level 52!
    eqlog_Torvel_52.txt 198225 [Thu Sep 12 21:31:27 2013] Kildawenae has joined the group.
    eqlog_Torvel_52.txt 200340 [Thu Sep 12 21:35:05 2013] You have gained a level! Welcome to level 53!
    eqlog_Torvel_52.txt 203693 [Thu Sep 12 21:43:59 2013] You have gained a level! Welcome to level 54!
    eqlog_Torvel_52.txt 209485 [Thu Sep 12 22:11:58 2013] You have gained a level! Welcome to level 55!
    eqlog_Torvel_52.txt 213644 [Thu Sep 12 22:41:18 2013] You have gained a level! Welcome to level 56!
    eqlog_Torvel_52.txt 221615 [Thu Sep 12 23:06:41 2013] You have gained a level! Welcome to level 57!
    eqlog_Torvel_52.txt 230898 [Thu Sep 12 23:45:35 2013] You have gained a level! Welcome to level 58!
    eqlog_Torvel_52.txt 247413 [Fri Sep 13 00:35:31 2013] You have gained a level! Welcome to level 59!
    eqlog_Torvel_52.txt 262415 [Fri Sep 13 01:29:20 2013] You have gained a level! Welcome to level 60!
    eqlog_Torvel_52.txt 266666 [Fri Sep 13 02:03:46 2013] Alternate Experience is *ON*.
    eqlog_Torvel_52.txt 271477 [Fri Sep 13 02:23:07 2013] You have gained an ability point! You now have 1 ability point.
    eqlog_Torvel_52.txt 273290 [Fri Sep 13 02:29:28 2013] You have gained an ability point! You now have 2 ability points.

    Also regarding the Paladin in PoNightmare: that was from the kite I did in one of my videos. I only went there for my video, so that's all the data I have for that zone. The results suggest that the level 53s were reduced less than FG NPCs, which are lower in level. This aligns with the Grimling data. My AA bar went up 36% in the kite. 18.75m * 0.36 = 6.75m. Calculated exp gained was 9.24m, so an estimated reduction multiplier of 0.731 gets you to the expected 6.75m. Now consider that the NPCs are not all the same level so the estimate reduction multiplier would be an aggregate, but it gives you a ballpark figure.
     
  21. Bragon

    Bragon People Like Me

    Messages:
    288
    Whelp, FG in its current form is less xp than ssra charming. That's quite something. That's with callers + entire zone pull, it clocks out at just north of 1.2 AA/ hours which is close to or inferior to a non optimized charm group with a rev. (depending on groups obviously)

    Disapointing to say the least.


    Considering the change to exp/AA will affect everything, it will still be sub par come next week, which basically makes any sort of AoE in its current form completely useless. Higher risk than any other activiites (wipes are still a thing often), higher skill cap especially on the puller and lesser reward. Not to mention a specific group composition including mutliple encs, aoe damage off course etc.

    Why would anyone go to the effort when you can grab and enc, a pet and go to town with minimal risk.

    In light of this, would it be possible to please re evaluate some of the previous AOE group specific nerfs that were done on this server?

    Most specifically:

    -Leash range beeing abnormaly low in zones like FG and The deep. This would make the deep enter the frey again may be, considering how hard it is already due to resists.

    -Kite limit in zones other than VT, which literally hamstrings AOE groups and are not akkurate by any means. With this exp nerf in the mix now it seems to be overkill.

    -Limitations put in place to the caller event which are not akkurate. With the straight 40 percentr nerf to xp overall with aoe spells, this seems to now also be overkill. Volume of kill will be more important than ever considering the nerf.
     
    Last edited: Jun 25, 2020
  22. Tryfan

    Tryfan People Like Me

    Messages:
    318
    I mean if we are going for the pure exp accuracy, as close to AK as possible, shouldnt we reevaluate OOR group exp and green con pling? The logs clearly show both of those working in practice.
     
    Last edited: Jun 25, 2020
  23. sowislifesowislove

    sowislifesowislove People Like Me

    Messages:
    570
    Indeed. I say this in as much non offense to the devs as possible because I am very thankful for this server and the joy it brings me. But there is some serious cherry picking going on with exp and pbae. I can definitely get on board with some things not being implemented for the greater good, but it just feels too far now.
     
    Bragon likes this.
  24. Dasidarius

    Dasidarius Member

    Messages:
    45
    There are a few things that I notice off the bat.

    We're missing the clvls of the other characters in the ae groups.

    The AA xp expected vs returned doesn't seem to be constant. In fact, according to the data, it ranges from 55.4 to 73.1%. I recognize that the 73.1 is in PoN on slightly higher level mobs. If there was a straight reduction I would expect that these results would be closer together. In fact the PoN data, to me, indicates that the difference in xp is based off of clvl vs mob lvl and not a straight reduction based upon kill.

    I also note that the leveling xp seems to be within the expected range while PBAEing without any reduction at all.

    Perhaps I'm missing a variable but these are the ratios for levels 54 to 60
    Level table/sum table/est real xp (from sheet)
    54 1.342301247 1.443334674
    55 1.178271173 1.024583629
    56 1.099559833 1.208307509
    57 1.077073057 1.210194446
    58 0.8125758653 1.083434487
    59 1.01606865 1.516520373

    I don't see how to reconcile these numbers.
     
    Last edited: Jun 25, 2020
  25. Torven

    Torven I Feel Loved Staff Member

    Messages:
    2,260
    I will say that I regret not including the AA fix with this nerf, but I couldn't have that ready in time for yesterday as exp code changes require a lot of testing for obvious reasons, but I could have waited on this nerf. I should know better by now and this reaction was entirely predictable.

    I have to mention something important that I didn't before: our current high level kill modifier/MLM is going down to -8 levels instead of -5, so people killing level 53-54 NPCs are getting more exp than they should be right now. If your (level 60) charm groups are killing NPCs of this level, then they are getting too much exp and this will be reduced. Level 52s are granting about 128% right now so they'll end up the same for AAs but 53-54s are granting too much.

    No, as I've stated before, it will not affect everything. Exp from level 55+ NPCs will be unchanged for AAexp on level 60 characters. (also a reduction for 53-54 which I did not mention before)

    The sum effect of these exp changes will be something like -15% for PBAoE AA exp at level 60 once AA exp is fixed.

    The idea for reducing the ignore range in these zones is because on AK (and you can still see this on Live servers) NPCs will often run backwards unpredictably and otherwise not pull as easily. FG had TERRIBLE pathing; in fact it was almost impossible to pull bandits and mushrooms down into the caller caves area at all otherwise I'd have done it. I had trouble even pulling the fungusmen in their own caves-- the reason I AoEd where I was in my videos is solely because the NPCs refused to path down into the back of caves where I could push them into a flat wall. (pushing into corners or walls is obviously preferable) I was the only one actually PBAoEing on the server to know this stuff.

    Right now I have the ignore range reduced by -50, which is -12.5%, but I can compromise that to -25. The zones had unforgiving ignore ranges on AK so even at zero reduction you're going to see mobs going home.

    No, it was not just VT. Skyfire had terrible pathing as well; i tried to AoE the zone and the best I could do was maybe a couple dozen. 300 mob ME pulls are not coming back and were not doable on AK. My 90ish mob pulls in PoValor lagged the zone to the point that it was essentially griefing anybody else inside. I could quote people in OOC talking about the lag in my logs but I think you'll take my word for it.

    Incidentally I had discovered that the OOR bug did not apparently function on AK if the characters were very far away. I had some parked at the inn in timorous while I was doing raptors and the exp gained clearly showed it not functioning.

    Regardless this bug is very harmful to the game and the devs agreed to not include it.
     
  26. Bragon

    Bragon People Like Me

    Messages:
    288
    Timorous deep is one of the only zones large enough for COH to not even work. The out of range xp worked pretty much in every zone that was not Timorous large.

    That's not what i was refering to. I'm refering to AAs taking less XP to complete next reset.

    This bit:

    Once fixed this will pull exp in charm groups ahead at the same time as lifting some of the nerf on AOE, but AOE will still be inferior due to the flat out 40 percent decrease now applied to AOE xp in general.

    Basically right now there is zero reason to AOE and there won't be;

    For some people is the most fun they have exping. Not everyone is into baby sitting a snake in SSRA, as not everyone is into AOEing.

    As an AOE afficionada yourself you know how fun it is, i know you do.

    If the changes remain and nothing is done to revert some of the previous nerfs to be able to increase mob quantity, AOE is pretty much dead on TAKP as an higher risk/ higher reward method and not worth it compared to charm grinding which also presents a much lower risk of wipe.
     
  27. Torven

    Torven I Feel Loved Staff Member

    Messages:
    2,260
    The reduction amounts for characters 51-59 are inconclusive. I'm not sure exactly how this should scale. This stuff is very difficult to figure out without a server to experiment on.

    The results for the grimlings and in FG at level 60 are what I based most of the logic on. As I said, this could get refined further if I can figure out how to make it better. Exp at level 60 should be close though.

    The precise group split multiplier is on the leveling tab. I know the levels of the characters (level 60s with the powerlee) and I computed it and pasted the result. For AA exp it doesn't require a weighted average computation because they're always the same level so a simple division by number of members will work. I had stayed at level 60 a long time because AK had a narrow dark blue range after level 60 which would make color stun PBAoE not feasible for exp and my group was built around that.
     
  28. Torven

    Torven I Feel Loved Staff Member

    Messages:
    2,260
    You don't seem to understand. I'll explain again.

    Right now the MLM/high level kill multiplier is too high, for all levels it applies, including 55-60. This will be reduced. The reason why it is too high is because I had based the math on 24m AAs, so after the MLM reduction and AAs are reduced to 18.75m exp, the effective AA gain rate will be the same when killing 55+ NPCs. This is largely why I couldn't reduce AA exp required this week, because the changes had to be done simultaneously.

    Right now a level 60 NPC killed by a level 60 PC has a MLM of 3.3. It's supposed to be 2.6.

    2.6 * 1.28 = 3.328

    AAs are currently requiring 28% more exp than they should be.
     
  29. Bragon

    Bragon People Like Me

    Messages:
    288
    I understand just fine.

    People charming in ssra in mines and basement kill level 51-54 stuff.

    People in FG kill sub 55 stuff as well with aoe spells with a baked in 40 percent nerf to xp now.
    The bulk of our XP used to come from the shiknar pull which is in a wide range including stuff up to 55 for soldiers.

    Next week's change will boost up xp earned in charm groups the same way it will boost xp earned in AOE in FG, but without the 40 percent reducation baked in.

    How is this going to help AOE becoming more desireable than charming?
     
    Last edited: Jun 25, 2020
  30. Dasidarius

    Dasidarius Member

    Messages:
    45
    I'm not seeing a reduction based on the Grimling data either.

    The numbers have a general trend but I do not understand how the conclusion is that there is a PBAE reduction modifier.

    Levels in the 30s all seem to be right around 1.10 of expected, which is to say based on your xp table you leveled with roughly 10% less xp (except level 35 and 40 which were double).

    32 1.17
    33 1.15
    34 1.13
    35 1.10
    36 2.03
    37 1.18
    38 1.15
    39 1.19
    40 1.17
    41 1.95
    42 1.16

    Starting at level 42 you include est real xp so I will too.

    table/exp sum table/est real xp
    43 1.11 1.15
    44 .96 1.14
    45 1.00 1.14
    46 1.46 1.92
    47 .72 1.15
    48 .68 1.15
    49 .58 1.14
    50 .49 1.14
    51 .38 1.14

    For fun I also ran the numbers on the Karnors ae which had higher level mobs.

    51 .8 1.05

    It seems to me, looking at this data, the only trend is reduction in incoming xp based off level differential. If there was a PBAE reduction we would see it across the board.
     
    Last edited: Jun 25, 2020