Upcoming Experience Changes

Discussion in 'General Discussion' started by Torven, Jun 24, 2020.

  1. Torven

    Torven I Feel Loved Staff Member

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    There will be a number of changes soon to the experience players get from NPCs. I have spent the last week crunching a lot of numbers using data I have generated from adding up kills between levels and AAs in logs and running that data through the known EQ exp math and compared it to some packet sniffed data from 2002 that I have recently discovered in old research threads. From this I was able to determine a number of inaccuracies in our current model.

    Our current AA exp required is too high. It is currently about 24 million exp when it should be 18.75 million. (technically it was 15m but AA exp was reduced 20%)

    Our current 'high level kill bonus multiplier' AKA 'mob level modifier/multiplier' (the term used in the research I discovered) is currently too high because it's compensating for the increased experience needed for AAs. (I had based it on visible AA meter gains) I have deduced the precise formula for this and will implement it soon. Currently on TAKP players killing low dark blue NPCs for AAs are getting too little exp (in terms of percentage) and players killing NPCs near their level are getting roughly about as much exp as they should be. When AAExp is off, players killing NPCs near their levels are getting too much exp and players killing low dark blues are getting the correct amount.

    During Luclin, Sony had implemented 'hell level balance modifiers/multipliers' to levels 30-60 in order to smooth out the leveling game. (i.e. take out hell levels) This was done by simply artificially increasing or reducing the amount of experience gained during these levels. I have figured out most of these multipliers and will implement them at some future time.

    In Luclin at least, very low level players had an artificial ZEM applied to them that increased experience gains at the lowest levels. How many levels this applies is still unknown.

    Sony had implemented a reduction of exp gained when PBAoE killing NPCs starting in the early 40s some time after January 2002. (I have an ealry 2002 log to compare) This is clearly visible when adding up NPC deaths and calculating experience gained compared to expected experience required to level or gain an AA point. Furthermore Darchon's post said he bailed on the Grimling Forest camp 'around level 46-47', but those NPCs are in fact all dark blue still at level 47. The reduced experience gained was from a PBAoE reduction as the number of kills required to level dramatically increased with level far beyond expected. This is mathematically provable so it's not based on hunches or theory, however the precise amount reduced and how it scales is fuzzy so the reduction implemented on TAKP may be further refined as more data becomes available. In Fungus Grove on level 60 characters, the exp granted was about 60% of normal. In Grimling Forest (at the miners) the exp reduced more as the player went up in level such that a level 50 character was receiving about 40% of normal. Note that most of the miners are still dark blue at level 50, and this 40% accounts for light blue exp reduction as well, although the precise amount of reduction for light blue exp is still uncertain.

    Keep in mind that fixing AAexp (which should happen in two weeks) will partially cancel out the newly implemented PBAoE nerf by more than half in FG.
     
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  2. Thunderace

    Thunderace People Like Me

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    Torven thanks for your work!


    I am trying to figure out how to kite like this, any tips?

     
  3. Auyster

    Auyster New Member

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    Found someone with a macro keyboard or something else. That isn't possible for a human to do.
     
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  4. Faults

    Faults I Feel Loved

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    The video shows you everything you need to know - its easily done boomba
     
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  5. Auyster

    Auyster New Member

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    That is a perfect circle for a solid 30 seconds shown. So either holding down W and A at the same time produces that circle or Celeborn there is using a macro to control his movements for that circle.
     
  6. Dasidarius

    Dasidarius Member

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    Looks like you figured it out.
     
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  7. Auyster

    Auyster New Member

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    Just baffled the mobs aren't hitting someone doing that simple trick.
     
  8. Tyrion

    Tyrion Active Member

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    EZ as pie really no tricks involved!
     
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  9. Faults

    Faults I Feel Loved

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    Sometimes the mobs catch you. Its not a perfect thing.
     
  10. Thunderace

    Thunderace People Like Me

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    insert "W+A mind blown" meme
     
  11. Boramek

    Boramek New Member

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    For those interested, I got my heal crits....
     
  12. Lenas

    Lenas I Feel Loved Staff Member

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    Mobs hate him! Click to learn one bard's simple trick to IMMUNITY!
     
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  13. Thunderace

    Thunderace People Like Me

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    https://ibb.co/mTvJHxc
     
  14. Bragon

    Bragon People Like Me

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    hit autorun

    Hit left

    You’re a nascar driver now, grats.


    So reading all this we can expect a 40 percent nerf to fg aoe xp? Am i reading this right?

    How does this affect other zones?
     
  15. Bragon

    Bragon People Like Me

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    Also is there a breakdown on how those values were calculated?
     
  16. Dasidarius

    Dasidarius Member

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    While I assume I know the answer to this question... AA will not be retroactively awarded for this change?
     
  17. sowislifesowislove

    sowislifesowislove People Like Me

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    So there was already experience changes put in on the fly prior to this last patch. Is there further nerf after this patch or what we were experiencing last week should still be the same this week?
     
  18. Tryfan

    Tryfan People Like Me

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    I don't understand something. Is Torven saying the game knew you were pbaeing mobs rather than just killing them other ways and can reduce exp based on that? Does this mean any mob killed with a Jylls or similar will be reduced whether it was pbae'd or not?

    I know there was exp changed from things like solo pet kills but this is the first time I have ever heard of the method of killing a mob otherwise changing how much exp you got...
     
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  19. Mokli

    Mokli People Like Me

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    My understanding from reading Torven's post is that it would lower the xp based on number of kills in a specific timeframe when xp is gathered from it and parsed serverside, not anything to do with the spells used.
     
    Last edited: Jun 24, 2020
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  20. Cerberus

    Cerberus Active Member

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    Any chance you could provide theses mathematical equations so I can look at them? I know you said precise amounts will change with more data but I would love to see what equations and technique and forumals where used and the order of operations because it can change the outcome.
    But you all as a Developer get A++ for nerfing AOE experience love it think eq is meant for camping experience and not just blasting 100 mobs for experience.
     
  21. Tyrion

    Tyrion Active Member

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    Unrelated question, is dictate supposed to go back on 10 min cooldown if its interrupted? Seems harsh if so...
     
  22. Mokli

    Mokli People Like Me

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    Any chance of backpay when the single kill xp gets a bump in two weeks? ;)
     
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  23. Linkamus

    Linkamus People Like Me

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    I get where you're coming from. However, I strongly disagree. Pulling FG in an AoE group is some of the most fun I've had in a video game, ever. It is much more difficult, and requires much more focus and attention than a regular single kill chain-pull group does. There is also much higher stakes. Dying on a pull, or worse, dying when the pull is right on the group can end up wasting a lot of time, and the odds of it happening are extremely high compared to a regular exp group. Part of what makes it worth it, and fun, is the added reward for putting in the extra effort, and taking that extra risk.

    With that said, if this nerf is somewhat mitigated next patch, it will be interesting to see if AoE exp is still worth the risk / effort or not. If not, I'll be pretty sad, but not devastated. If it makes the server more accurate to the era, I can get behind it, regardless of my personal feelings.

    Edit: I appreciate the effort the devs are continuing to put forward in order to make the server as accurate as possible!
     
    Last edited: Jun 24, 2020
  24. Devour_Souls

    Devour_Souls People Like Me

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    This is what I gathered also.
     
  25. Bragon

    Bragon People Like Me

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    Fun fact: people aoeing usually bring 6 mains, aka 6 real people to the group + their boxes out of the group. This make for actual enjoyable group experience since there's a lot of talking and shooting the shit during those groups.

    I never got the : well well you need to be grinding mob per mob logic ....usually people 3 box or 6 box with 2 humans when they do that, i don't see how it is closer to 'real EQ experience'

    People aoe'ed back in 99/00/01/02 as well, this is not a new thing.

    On to the aoe xp nerf: i have never heard of a separate xp table depending on what spell you use. Granted i'm not an EQ dev but i've been around the community for a while now, and this is very first.

    I don't doubt it's true, but i've looked at patch notes and can't find any mentions of it for 2002, I'll try to go back further when i find time.

    I'd like to at least see how this was found out because this boggles my mind. What exactly is the cap allowed per what unit of time? How is this even caculated? Yeah the more i think about it the more i realize i have never seen this concept.

    Edited: nope apparentl i heard right the first time, it's NPCs killed by AOE spells, not during a timeframe.

    This is mind blowingly new to me, a logic to detect that mobs were killed by AOE spells? guess you learn things every day.
     
    Last edited: Jun 24, 2020
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  26. Torven

    Torven I Feel Loved Staff Member

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    Yes, Sony's server logic determined that the NPCs were killed with PBAoE damage and reduced the experience awarded accordingly. I can't say precisely how they determined this, however the logic I used will not reduce experience unless the NPC was hit with a lot of AoE damage. (i.e. a single jylls cast as the finishing blow after mostly melee damage will not reduce it at all) I can say that it did not apply to higher level NPCs, like PoValor level; but did apply to PoNightmare NPCs at level 60. Also I have measurable logs of miner NPCs killed with and without the reduction. The exact same NPCs at the exact same levels.

    This is a patch note:

    December 12, 2001 12:00 am

    - Made several gameplay changes to The Grey. A single group having the
    ability to simultaneously engage and prevail against 35+ experience-
    giving creatures is not in line with the desire for risk vs. reward and
    the promotion of balanced groups.

    Sony nerfed the Grey because of AoE groups, and Sony put in magic resistant NPCs in Acrylia to nerf AoE groups. It's not out of character for them to have implemented some kind of reduction; particularly when they are also substantially increasing experience gained from NPCs closer to your level. It's also not difficult to implement, so it's not like they had to invest a lot of developer time.

    Nevertheless I went far beyond the amount of research necessary to prove it mathematically to be certain and I wasn't even looking for it at all or suspicious until I was crunching numbers to start with. I found some vague references to exp nerfs without specifics:

    April 2002: "Thought they nerfed exp here a long time ago...could be wrong..maybe our pulls were just halved."

    https://www.graffes.com/forums/showthread.php?6025-Acrylia-Sucks&p=125537&viewfull=1#post125537

    Project 1999 thread:

    "aoe groups where nerfed 3 months into luclin, and mainly in luclin areas. shit is classic sadly."

    "Fungus was harder due to the exp nerf and the mobs who shroom you"

    https://www.project1999.com/forums/archive/index.php/t-156004.html

    It's not much but I don't require it since I have the math.

    Experienced gained from an NPC = mobLevel * mobLevel * ZEM * classMultiplier (for level exp only) * groupSplit * groupBonus * serverBonus * HBM (leveling only) * MLM

    ClassMultiplier is typically 1, 1.1, or 1.4 depending on class. This was put in place to effectively remove the class penalty during Velious, as the experience required per level is higher for hybrids and such.

    groupSplit would be, for example, 0.2 in a five man group of equal level players.

    groupBonus is either 0, 1.2, 1.4, 2.2, 2.6.

    serverBonus is of course 1.2 for AK.

    HBM is the hell level balance multiplier that applies to leveling from 30-60. For many levels this would be 0.9 and for hell levels this might be around 1.5.

    MLM is a bonus applied if the NPC is within +/- 5 levels of the player. If the player is level 60 or higher, then for white cons it is (260-13*(playerLevel - mobLevel))/100. If the player is below 60, then it is capped to 2.6-((60 - playerLevel)*0.16). This value is then reduced or raised by 0.13-(60-playerLevel)*0.013 times the level difference.

    The 15/18.75 number was from packet sniffed data from 2002 era threads. Exp required per level was also well known back then. I verified that the 18.75m value is correct by adding up log kills and calculating the experience gained. The MLM calculation was figured out by somebody in 2003 using packet sniffed experience data. I figured out the sub 60 cap function myself. It matches Zamiel's data.
     
    Last edited: Jun 27, 2020
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  27. Bragon

    Bragon People Like Me

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    How did you find and determine this?

    Did you have pre 2001 logs and post 2002 logs? same exact conditions, same starting level, same group comp etc and xp can be measured to be 40 percent lower in the 2002 logs?

    This blows my mind.
     
  28. Devour_Souls

    Devour_Souls People Like Me

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    I remember vividly having a conversation with Dalbwen(Tribunal) about one month into Luclin. I was on deployment at the time and got to come home for Christmas, so it would have been around one month or less after release and he already over 100 AAs. I asked him how he had so many, so soon, and he told me that they were able to AE like mad, but it had been already been nerfed. Seeing this now and remembering that conversation is a blast from the past.
     
  29. Tryfan

    Tryfan People Like Me

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    I thought Grey had its exp reduced by a murdering of its ZEM, not from a flat percentage reduction in pbae exp. As I recall it became utterly horrible to quad in after the change, which suggests a more zone specific change.
     
  30. gardnerjens

    gardnerjens People Like Me

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    I am quite sure it is because the way that you can trigger traps, like in ME, but the mobs you trigger were all stunable, i am sure the boulderlings became unstunnable which was the nerf. But you are rigth, Gray has alot of light blues, and if you could pbaoe that zone, then there must not have been a kite limit. for it to be worth it