Allow Earthshaker + Rampage to function

Discussion in 'General Discussion' started by Darchon, Jul 3, 2019.

  1. Darchon

    Darchon I Feel Loved

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    I think it should be considered making this functionality AKurate for several reasons.

    One it was a unique thing on AK for about a decade after it got nerfed on live.

    Two with the recent cap of 80 mobs on your hatelist it greatly limits the capabilities of this to be exploited to crash zones or level absurdly quickly.

    A max Dexterity player will proc their main hand 2x per minute. A 70 delay weapon in the hands of a 70% slowed Warrior I believe will swing every 12 seconds or 5 times per minute. At 2 procs per minute and 5 swings per minute, we are talking about a 40% proc chance.

    With a maximum train of 80 mobs and a 40% proc rate, we are looking at 32 procs on average if you Rampage on a full pull. So 32 x 250 DD per proc is a total of 8000 Damage. That’s ideal number of mobs, average proc and no resists no critical assumed.

    Effectively enough damage to use the methods to farm lower level content for Tradeskill stuff but not bring down trains in Planar or even Luclin zones with level 50+ Mobs for EXP.

    The primary concerns posed by shakerpaging (zone crashing, monopolizing of PoValor, and quickly created level 65 100+ AA characters) were addressed with the mob cap limit and its my humble opinion that shakerpaging should be reinstated for AKuracy. Thanks!
     
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  2. Bum

    Bum I Feel Loved

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    Approved
     
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  3. Thunderace

    Thunderace People Like Me

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    While we are on the topic - lets enable procs on /disc furious :D
     
  4. Walex

    Walex People Like Me

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    I'm not sure if this is sarcasm -- forgive me if it is. I assume you mean you should be able to proc on a riposte.

    This would be a very game-breaking thing to add in. Darchon's main argument is that shakerpaging with the 80-mob limit wouldn't allow killing an entire train of high-level mobs, but would be useful for killing lower-level trains for farming. Allowing procs on furious/riposte would be far more DPS than only using rampage AA and would easily bring down trains -- or raid mobs. (1 melee round per mob via ramage disc vs several ripostes per mob). Having a hard time killing that pesky raid mob? No problem. just train 80 mobs on top of him, pop furious and watch his hp drop.

    As far as I know, procing on a riposte has never been a thing.
     
  5. Thunderace

    Thunderace People Like Me

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    I think the Earthshaker + Rampage AA would be fantastic.
     
    Last edited: Jul 3, 2019
  6. Haynar

    Haynar Administrator Staff Member

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    It falls into same category as monk ac, ranger archery, kiting large groups of mobs.

    There are other means to get same result. But selectively one is allowed over another.

    Monk AC = very few plays monks. Some left. Some play other classes.

    Ranger archery = there are not armies of rangers firing trueshot. There are now alt wizards. It made them the alt dps choice. It only removed rangers as an option. What did it solve? Nothing. Same result happened. Alt dps class of choice is now wizards.

    AE limits? Purpose was to limit AA rate. Ppl still AE. Just takes longer. So if you need x# of AAs. More time is needed to get there. Typical AA rates for AE groups are 2-3 AA/hr max. But thats only for exp group. Usually more needed for safety. So real rates are typically 1.5 AA/hr per character.

    Shakerpaging - AE groups are already limited. So alternatives to this already exist. With the current idea of only approving limited ways to do things. I am guessing this will be a no.
     
    Last edited: Jul 3, 2019
  7. Dane

    Dane People Like Me

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    Except those examples aren't AKurate, and shakerpaging is. As a non-warrior, it doesn't really affect me, but I'll usually be on the side of AKuracy over arbitrary balance concerns. Especially when those balance concerns are mitigated by the mob cap.
     
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  8. Haynar

    Haynar Administrator Staff Member

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    Not taking a side on this stuff anymore.

    AKurate? Or exploit? Thats the debate.

    Argue your viewpoint.

    Go.
     
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  9. Mokli

    Mokli People Like Me

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    So many boats in the distance.
     
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  10. Darchon

    Darchon I Feel Loved

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    Under no circumstances should ripostes proc. Dunno why that’s being discussed.

    My whole argument here is Shakerpaging was AKurate, but it was removed here because of what it was able to do when entire zones of 150+ mobs were pulled together on AK.

    With the new hate list limitations on trains, the potential damage from a shakerpage is dropped below the threshold necessary to kill mobs that will give reasonable EXP for 60+ characters. Also the lower mob count should prevent zone crashes when it is utilized because less mobs and spell effects are going off at the same time.
     
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  11. Tryfan

    Tryfan People Like Me

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    I feel like there might be a technical limitation here. I have done a lot of AEing on this server. Like, a LOT of it. There is very very frequently a major serverside lag (latency not graphics) burst late in the AEs we do, which are near the mob limit. It is not when the mobs first start dying but it is soon after. Me and Drudgee could not narrow down what exactly is causing it. But it's there, reliably so. It could be the faction spam. Whatever it is, the server simply does not like that many mobs together dying.
     
  12. Tyrion

    Tyrion Active Member

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    What if you had two warriors and two trains in range simultaneously?
     
  13. Slayzz

    Slayzz People Like Me

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    Just gimme the word. Will hit that buy button on those 5 AAs for Rampage ASAP! Got some banked and ready and PoP ;)
     
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  14. showstring

    showstring I Feel Loved

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    Can we please give it more than a month of PoP development before we shift focus on pissing Torven off again?
     
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  15. Darchon

    Darchon I Feel Loved

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    On AK Rampage crashed everyone near the train, so it didn't allow for this. But I suppose you could bring like 3 warriors to defeat a PoP train if you weren't crashing each Rampage landing.
     
  16. Torven

    Torven I Feel Loved Staff Member

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    That's just part of it. The reasons were/are:

    The experience gains in PoValor were stupidly high and it ruins the character development of the game in the form of levels and AAs. On top of that, (allowable) exploits/tricks on this server are abused much more frequently than they were on AK, which makes them even more damaging. Look at color stun PBAoE: it's just done way, way more here than it ever was on AK. I had long-time AK players watch me and just kind of awe at what I was doing. Here it's super mundane/routine. Do you want players hitting level 65 in a few hours after expac launch? Getting all their AAs in one day? That's silly.

    It would have been WAY more effective on this server due to the pathing and the server being much more reliable and huge trains being possible (zones lagged super hard on AK pulling massive trains); also the complete lack of warping here. The pull limit makes it much more reasonable, but you'd still be able to do it places you wouldn't be able to on AK. Frankly I'm not sure how bad it would be with the pull limits in place; (although we can adjust limit per zone) it might not be too bad or it could be bad enough that devs would regret it. Taking a toy away from players after giving it to them makes them super mad.

    Incidentally I noticed what appears to be a bug when I was PBAoEing on AK. I have video of kills not registering exp gains, and when I tallied up experience gains in PB logs, the AA gain rate was less than expected. I think AK may have had a bug where exp was just not counted on some kills when many gains were in quick succession. If that's true then that's yet another reason why it's worse here.

    Pulls over 90 or so mobs were dangerous for me on AK as well. The 120ish mob pull video I did took I think a few days of many takes due to lag causing deaths and needing to pull at just the right time to maximize pull size. When exping I'd stick to two caves which were I think around 80 mobs.

    I wasn't even the dev that brought the issue up internally. I had previously wanted a limited form of it allowable but it's just very difficult to half-way on this due to AK's limits on it being pathing, warping, lag and zone crash related. Any way it would go in would end up very artificial regardless.
     
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  17. Mokli

    Mokli People Like Me

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    With respect, PBAE via color stuns is done so much basically because normal xp gain is so slow in Luclin compared to PoP. AK released with PoP already live. If PoP was live, no one, and I mean no one would be xping in the Hole, FG, SSRA, even CT. The 55+ xp game in Luclin is just slow as molasses. At least with PBAE's you feel like you are making progress. PBAEing via color stuns becomes less viable in PoP anyway, so of course you'd see it less on AK.
     
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  18. Jugo!

    Jugo! People Like Me

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    Long n short of it, basically what Mokli said- PoP exp supercedes old world AE xp. PBAE is just what is available to us currently, so we do that. PBAE will die off except for TS mat farming once PoP is out.
     
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  19. actualspaide

    actualspaide People Like Me

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    If the aa gains from ae exp are an issue will the exp from hasted charmed frenzies in tactics be nerfed? I remember pulling in quite a few aa just afking playing mez song on them.
     
  20. sowislifesowislove

    sowislifesowislove People Like Me

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    Wow bro. That’s a solid point. I never played on AK, so I didn’t realize that and I haven’t seen anyone bring this up. Of course that’s the reason.
     
  21. Yarnee

    Yarnee Well-Known Member

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    I am still extremely frustrated with the kite limit changes. Basically, it made tank + enc + healer the only viable trio for hitting max AA quickly. People dont group, if that was the purpose of removing AOE. At least when people AOEd i would be playing and working together with other humans. Now finding a group is extremely painful, sitting LFG for hours on end. IMO AOE functionality should be restored or the server should consider letting people 6 box or 5 box so at least every play session can be somewhat productive. It isnt like we have a huge population where groups are readily available. Most guilds wouldnt let people 6 box on raids anyways. I dont understand why AK bugs are being recreated for the sake of slowing people down.
     
  22. Torven

    Torven I Feel Loved Staff Member

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    Oh you poor spoiled users.

    As I have mentioned before, experience gains on AK in a 4+ group were roughly 2.7 times that of regular EQ servers-- mostly due to the bugged group experience bonus. Imagine getting 1 AA every TWO HOURS in a raid geared low-downtime AoE group. That was reality in 2002.

    On top of that, PoP zones on PC servers had their ZEMS reduced dramatically after the Ykesha era group bonus was implemented as the developer intent was to equalize the experience gains in those zones, and AK didn't, so the bugs and oversights we're recreating are helping you a lot more than they aren't. Allowing people to exploit massive amounts of exp ain't going to help you find groups when everybody gets their AAs in a day or two then log off and only show up for raids after that point.

    PBAoEing here is still significantly easier than it was on AK due to the more reliable pathing and lack of warping.

    And I did PBAoE to 60 and got all Luclin AAs before moving into PoP zones on AK. It was worth doing just for the loot/platinum even if the experience were worse than killing PoP stuff one at a time, which it wasn't. (at level 60 anyway) I also did it for Kunark spells.

    No. There is an order of magnitude difference between hasted charm pets killing blues and killing all of PoValor in 30 minute intervals.

    That's EQ. Every time somebody says "the holy trinity of tank, healer, dps" in modern games, I think how it used to mean "tank, healer, enchanter" in EQ. A 3 box limit server makes this worse for obvious reasons.
     
  23. Haynar

    Haynar Administrator Staff Member

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    You have got better at aggroing Torven (200).
     
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  24. Yarnee

    Yarnee Well-Known Member

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    Are there ever going to be any more votes on raising the box limit? Like once PoP is done or something?
     
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  25. Walex

    Walex People Like Me

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    I would vote to lower it.
     
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  26. Yarnee

    Yarnee Well-Known Member

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    They should just add a clause to the 3 box limit that you cant be on a melee + enc + healer at the same time, then there would be groups
     
  27. gardnerjens

    gardnerjens People Like Me

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    Thanks for those words Torven, i respect all the decission made on Pbaoe changes. Devs make the rules we adapt, that is how life is lets move on
     
  28. Darchon

    Darchon I Feel Loved

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    Eh this thread devolved pretty quickly, I probably should’ve foreseen that being the path it would take.

    Dunno how we got to ripostes proccing, remove kite limitations, and increase boxing limits out of this thread but oh well.

    Ah well, I just wanted to see if my warrior friends could see some love in having the ability to AE down a train of rockhoppers or Grimlings for Tradeskill stuff in light of the kiting limit changes solving the issue of entire zone (PoValor) AEs.

    I agree with Torven that AEing here is undoubtably easier than it was on other servers because EQEmu pathing is vastly superior to AK or Live pathing.
     
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  29. showstring

    showstring I Feel Loved

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    What if we... increased Ranger AC and gave Monks archery?
     
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  30. lurari

    lurari People Like Me

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    Pavlov would be proud. Every suggestion thread garners all the same responses, regardless of the original topic.