The Fungus Grove caller script is now limited to 1 caller per cave. Developers decided to nerf this because the kill rates seen were simply not possible on AK due to the worse pathfinding code and the lag that was generated on pulls over 100 mobs. It's simply too easy to AoE large pulls here. Also it was not possible to pull mushrooms, bandits, bugs etc down to the caller area (or not without EXTREME difficulty-- I know I tried very hard to) so the combined experience rate of 12 callers and regular zone spawns was deemed too much. The despawn timer of the caller spawned NPCs was doubled however, too allow for more time to pull them.
These pulls were less than 100 mobs per pull. By my calculations it was 3-4 mobs per caller wave * 4 callers * 2 waves per pull * 3 caves. Wait for any more to spawn, and the prior waves despawn. This garnered pulls of 72-96 mobs. We only had one successful large AE bandit pull, and I don't know the efforts involved there, but it did take many attempts. The combined rate was something like 2 AAs/hour, and that required intense focus and no mistakes. If the puller dies, party wipes, or callers despawn, that rate decreases.
Dont you have a video of you pbaoeing 125 mobs in FG at once? *edit* 126 mobs I guess I mean no disrespect torven, and I haven't done this yet but plan to when it isnt perma camped. Is something like what's in your video still possible?
That video took two or three days to capture, if I recall. Many wipes due to lag, and due to the way the caller script works, the total up at once varies. My normal pulling routine was 2 caves of 8 callers, because 3 caves was too dangerous. 'Lag' in this context being server lag, not video lag, which delayed stun casts. The PC client also had LD problems on AK. I'm the guy trying to keep PBAoE from being nerfed game-wide, but I agree that the caller script needed to be toned down. Post-nerf, max pull size from callers will be 45. Being able to pull mushrooms, dregs, bandits etc. down there was a large factor in the decision. It's still the best exp in the game when you pull those between fungusbeasts.
IMO it was the right call, as it was FG was going to be equal to p99's Chardok and we saw what happened there.
Max pulls pre-nerf were 108. I had lowered the spawn time a little from AK because (I theorize anyway) that AK was limited to 100 NPCs with the same name up at once, so if I didn't cap the spawn time at 5 minutes, then more than the total possible than what AK had would have been possible here. 126 was the highest I could get on AK after many tries because the total possible up was random. Here it would very reliably be 108 mobs after 3 waves x 12 callers x 3 mobs per wave.
That sounds more reasonable, but I'd like to note that you can't pull and kill 3 waves without the first wave despawning, given the 5 minute timer.
The timer stops when the mob is aggro. Spawn + 2 minutes + spawn + 2 minutes + spawn = 4 minutes for 3 waves
The timer wasn't stopping when mobs were aggroed, we had several despawn on us while they were being stunned. I understand why the change was made. But I don't really think pulling extra mobs down there was a big factor in the value of that camp. The value of the camp was how predictable the pull would go and how quickly mobs spawned. After the change I really don't see many people doing the camp. Maybe if there were 2-callers per cave? But as it is, I don't think the EXP justifies the camp and the number of toons you need to hold it down.
The mobs were definitely despawning in the middle of the AE after aggro. It was possible to do 2 waves at a time if the pulls from all three caves were done quickly and if there was enough DPS to get the mobs dead before they despawned. It would have been effectively impossible to do 3 waves at once consistently before the first wave despawned.
I can see the error I made causing them to depop in combat. That'll be fixed. A group of 6 can easily do that camp though.
The max # of mobs is well under 100 with the despawn mechanic as it is now, at least for the caller mobs only. I can't speak to pulling the rest of the zone mobs as I don't have experience doing that. Is there still a reason to cut the total number of mobs by 1/4? I disagree that a group of 6 can consistently do that camp without wipes/hick-ups/downtime that would have a large impact on the exp rate. What would the group composition be? From what I saw, there have been 12+ total toons supporting the 6 in the exp group. It seems like a reasonable resource commitment, especially given that the pulls are not exactly trivial or low risk. Not trying to get into a internet argument over this, just left scratching my head a bit.
I agree that from a balance standpoint, the exp was too good. I'll miss it, but this is probably the right call. (Re: numbers, the group I did it with last night was BRD/CLR/ENC/ENC/ENC/WIZ/WIZ/WIZ and a few nonessential toons soaking up exp. I agree that ditching an ENC would've been dangerous - too much chance of death when the mobs hit camp - and ditching a wiz would've created mana problems keeping up with the spawns, although changing the despawn timer to allow pulling three waves at once might've changed that.)
That is a fair point, most other AE groups do demand some out of group support generally, Caller cycle can pretty easily be done with just 6.
Do the named remain up longer than the trash? I was reading on live that they did and you could farm them once trash depopped. Just asking for a friend.
I'll bump the despawn timer up to 15 minutes. That should allow 6 waves (54 mobs) in a single pull and lots of time to pull other stuff in the zone without increasing spawns/minute. I did callers with 6 characters wearing vendor cloth and zero FT, so certainly vulak geared people can handle it with 6. I originally gave the named a longer despawn timer, but due to the way the script had to be 5 minute timers, it allowed people to easily single pull them so I had to make their timers the same. I'll ask the other devs how they want this now that the timers are longer, but I don't have an issue with it.
Was this 4 callers x 3 caves with no waves skipped? IMO that would be really impressive. What was your group comp?
The video in this thread was 12 callers with me trying to get as many mobs as I could into one pull, so that's me doing a 126 pull with 6. 2 ench, 2 wiz, 1 cler, 1 dru To farm/exp however I did two caves, reliably, in pulls of about 80 or so each if I recall. If lag weren't an issue, perhaps I'd have done all 12 full time. Taking hits isn't much of an issue when you use DA to pull. I got really beat up in the deep though. My first test pull of 11 killed an enchanter and I had to heal through it. One pull was all I needed to tell me to GTFO.
well without takp nerfs to this/shakerpage... someone could walk an invisible warrior into a 12 caller spawn, press Rampage and kill the entire wing in 1 button i guess nerfs can be a good thing sometimes... i agree with poster above, we don't want a p99 chardok *edit btw on AK you could have 12 callers in 1 wing...
I guess it's somewhat different due to the despawn mechanic that we were working with, but I don't think that group comp would have been able to reliably clear waves as it was implemented on TAKP before these recent changes. Having to constantly pull smaller groups meant having to either get brazen pulling without DA (due to cooldown) or having a bard in group (so replace the druid?). And going oom would certainly become an issue after a few pulls on the nukers, even considering the no-rent potion-type items dropping. Having the fast pace to keep ahead of despawns made it actually a pretty fun camp. Would it be a good compromise to allow more caller spawns but even further accelerate the depop timer shorter than the 5 minutes it was at? It would mean more frequent smaller pulls, but having to stay on top of them so you can't cheese a 120+ mob pull easily with a DA every 10 minutes. Just throwing ideas out there!
I do find it funny when people say that 'it's not worth it' when one cave with one keg is meant to be for an entire group at a fast pace. We had to decide on what to do with this in a hurry because the longer we let it go on, the more unfair it was to allow people to do it. The fact that people are complaining about guild favoritism just goes to show how broken it was. It's silly when people don't even exp unless they're in this camp and just log off if it's not available and entire guilds get their exp here and they get all their AAs in a few weeks. PBAoE is still easier to do here than it was on AK due to pathing. Get a tank and have them pull stuff.
The accusations of favoritism are just crazy. It did not matter who was doing FG. We were watching from day one, most concerned with rate people were getting AA's. Decisions to change it was based on how fast AAs were going. It wasn't nerfed because some guild had their "turn" and now time to change it, before a different guild gets a chance. We take many efforts to play no favorites here. So knock off the favoritism BS. Its childish.
I said I would bump up the timer to 15 minutes, but I changed my mind and I wanted to explain rather than weasel out of it and hope nobody noticed. I changed my mind because increasing the timer would not have been like AK; would have affected groups not AoEing the content negatively; I saw how easily people were pulling 100 mob trains in there; I have some evidence to suggest that low blues are awarding more exp than they should; people are getting a somewhat concerning number of AAs a day AoEing even after the caller nerf; It would have only increased max pull size by 9 anyway.
The caller spawn is largely irrelevant, not really any better than say Velks. The massive exp is coming from the zonewide pull. And even while someone like Foxboxxer or Darchon can pull it all in one giant pull, even less experienced pullers can get it all or most of it in two and beat respawn while still doing callers. So it will come down to whether or not you want a zone (or two, Deep is harder but exp is just as good) giving out 15-20 aa in a solid day's play. This was definitely not possible in 2002, but unless mechanics changes prevent it I am sure its possible on Live now.
Why would it not have been possible? If people in 2002 had the same enchanter and wizard boxes, what would have stopped them? In 2002 it wouldn't have happened because it is unlikely that 6 people would come and assist 6 others get exp, receiving nothing for their time themselves. It's also unlikely that it would have occurred due to server populations at the time. This server is different than AK and live were at the time. Accounts don't have a monthly fee and alt armies are common. It should be no surprise that some content is approached differently because of the bots that people have and utilize.
