Ive raided on live, live tlp from classic-ROF,played p99 & p2k2 & played a ranga everytime. Archery aa's were made so the ranga was more then just a ws sac bot come Luclin. Archery was ment* to be aggro less & was ment to be high dps. Its bad enough there is no autofire but OG corner bug also,yikes. Rangas are a ranged dps class after earning min of 38aa & lvl 60 so avoiding the AE & killing the boss after all wizzys & mages are dead from over nuking is their job. Clients that go by 'in era' laws sometimes forget that there is a reason EQ had patches & it was to fix the ridiculous.
We are actually trying to reproduce closer to AK. As reasonably as possible. Not an "in era" like a "PoP Era" thing, but like it was on the AK server.
The goal of TAKP is to be as close to AK as reasonably possible. This thread is about arguing that the current corner bug iteration is far from Akkurate, as we were able to consistently arrow cornered mobs on AK, but absolutely 0% of them here.
I spent the entire day looking through logs, putting together evidence and doing some ranger parses with our current build. Layonhands had a very large log with others hits on. I was able to write a small script to check for ranger damage (using trueshot disc messages to know who the rangers are) and list all the mobs rangers attacked and which damage types they used. Then I went through some logs that did not have others hits on and searched for trueshot discs and the bosses they were using it on. Results are too large to paste here, so I made a pastebin: Preliminary results on parses indicate a level 65 wielding an earth bow with 1849 sheet ATK and 125% haste is doing roughly 200ish DPS on a 200 AC level 55 target with 50 resist on our current build. Timespinner + EoE outdamages it by a small margin but the bow beat Stone Etched Mallet + Dagger of Distraction (p3 dagger). Both logs attacking NPC from behind. Don't take that result as gospel however because A) I wasn't kicking or casting spells, B) I have no idea of our timespinner pet proc damage is anywhere near correct (it's hitting for 444s), C) elemental weapon damage is highly sensitive to resists (arrows have this) and raid bosses will have less than 50 debuffed, D) archery damage varies much more per unit time due to fewer hits/time and 20 minute logs were giving me results seemingly about +/-10%, E) Melee log had zero missed swings on a stationary mob with no concern for aggro, ripostes etc. I'll do some more logs later under more ideal conditions. I also checked my old 2003 logs. (of which I have dozens) I'll post some DPS numbers from them tomorrow. I can't paste the results here easily.
Featherwood - 149.47 Obsidianwood - 166.28 Primordialwood - 156.78 Stonewood - 153.33 Bow of the Tempest - 175.5 These were the numbers Link is referring to. Each was a 8+ hour parse against a banker with a bard box singing War March for 100% haste and no other buffs. With Eagle Eye and other ATK buffs these numbers of course go up.
Having rangers be effective on raids seems to match with the parses you found. As a wizard I don't mind having competition for dps - having rangers who were traditionally coming into their own finally with ranged in Luclin be currently totally gimped seems unfair and a bug that would be great if it could be fixed so they serve a role on raids as they used to in the "archery era".
These numbers can only be achieved in a raid with full-time babysitting too. Can't auto-attsck to get this, can't be a part of heal chain. Takes full-time single box rangering .
With macros, pennyrolling, on bosses it doesn't take much attention. Provided you arent having to reposition for los.
I thought sending command to a screen you aren't using was against the rules still. I don't fire arrows while on my cleric certainly and wasn't aware others did or could. Maybe it's in the way I switch spaces (2 buttons) on my Mac but switching boxes stops my firing.
Ya, if I switch to my cleric or enchanter, my ranger stops shooting. Until/Unless I get a second physical box for him, this will remain the case.
Seems to be a few different ranger posts running around. The autofire / marco / penny roll and this cornered mobs issue. It would be nice if all this could be rolled into a Devs intentions with Respect to archery post addressing both (maybe even a broader class thread with main issues and how they are being addressed). I personally recall on Live (never played AK) that cornered mobs required me to find an angle which would allow me to fire arrows and hit as if the mob was out in the open. Usually this angle was from the side somewhere. It is a bit frustrating to not have that ability now, making the countless AAs plopped into archery (and am still plopping) less meaningful. I would be ok with more aggro and even a chance of using arrows on raids (meaning there were certain angles on cornered mobs that if found would allow archery to function normally).
Devs have given answers for both issues. Regarding cornering, so far I'm not seeing anything that would make us change our decision. If anything, what I found reinforces it.
I don't understand what has been discovered that reinforces it? We were clearly arrowing plenty of cornered mobs on AK (plenty of ranger input and logs showing that,) and we cannot at all here. Having no arrows on raid mobs and being weak warriors surely is considered less Akkurate.
Does this mean you have insufficient evidence to show that cornered mobs could indeed be hit? Just trying to figure out what the issue is, I guess. I get that there's a conflict of interest when we tell you "We could hit cornered mobs!" Since me and fox and any others that vouged for this fact play rangers as our mains. Was my LMM log not sufficient to at least show that sometimes cornered mobs could be hit? If you need proof that we cornered him, you could ask anyone from Temerity that raided back then, and they will all agree I am sure, that he was always cornered. Or perhaps I am misunderstanding where you're coming from entirely. That could definitely be the case! -Sad ranger
Hi dev team! Truly happy you are giving the rangers your valued time to work out this critical issue. As a game developer now for over 20 years, I've sat and discussed these sorts of issues over the years. My question is directed towards the codebase itself. How difficult would this implementation of this fix man hour wise? What would be some of the challenges faced by finding a solution, or would it be a relatively easy toggle or line of code to emulate the unique attributes of EQ Mac?
Where did the decision originate though? When/why was it decided that 100% of cornered mobs should not be hit? There has been several peeps that have weighed in with information that contradicts the 100%. Sure that’s not proof. I guess what I’m asking is where/what are the devs making this decision from? What makes y’all say there is enough info that every mob cornered should be 100%. Edit: just read Link’s question asking the same thing . But yea, I think this would clear up some of the confusion.
I feel like leaving double backstab broken or not implementing burning affliction would have kept things more AKurate. Sorry if I sound salty. It may be hard to tell but I really do love you guys .
I'd like to also express the amount of respect I have for how much effort is put into this place. How thorough you guys are in recreating our strange little AK is amazing. I've looked through a lot of rulings and tweaks that had to be made, and this is genuinely the only one I've had a real disagreement with. We're just all having trouble understanding where the desire to keep archery from being functional is coming from. It seems to go in line with both of the laid out server goals of trying to keep things as Akkurate as possible (we could arrow far more cornered mobs than we could not,) while also doing tweaks/bug fixes for the more broken parts of AK. I believe most of us made a ranger here after reading that, and thought we would be similar to our AK selves. But as it is, we are probably the weakest iteration of ranger that has ever been known in EQ, regardless of server. Only our pre-Luclin selves can really rival us in not really having a reason to exist. What are you looking for us to provide you? I promise we will do our absolute best to seek out and find it. This bug was not limited to AK, and I believe functioned identically on live up until around OoW, giving us far more resources to seek out information from than most AKkuracy data hunts.
FWIW, I remember rangers regularly monkeying around with positioning to find a sweet spot from which to plink cornered mobs. Lotsa vivid mental images of elf nerds with shoulders crammed against walls, bows a-firing. Irrelevant peanut gallery opinion: increasing archery aggro and decreasing LoS restrictions to AK levels seems like a nice balance. Fix the bug (negligible archery aggro), improve AKuracy. Li'l perspective for my ranger pals: in the transition from AK to TAKP, SKs lost the abilities to (1) infinitely refill our mana bars, (2) pet-pull singles at will, and (3) reduce a pal's hate generation by 98%. And we still do okay!
Dev time is low. For almost everything. This is not a structured project. The current implementation is what was best guess in how AK was. Researching and figuring out how it should be is where the effort takes place. It looks like players are trying to contribute some. But researching and figuring out mechanics is where 90% of the time is spent. If dev time is an issue. Without additional evidence, it stays as is.
I understand we're not the only class to lose something in our AK transition, but I cannot help but consider this to have a more severe impact on our ability to enjoy ourselves than other class changes. We completely lost the only real class defining feature we have. To me, this is like if SKs lost the ability to FD or wear plate armor. It just hurts our reason to exist so much. We understand dev time is an issue, and don't wish for much to be spent on this. It's unlikely the ancient spaghetti code geometry causing the old archery bug could ever be accurately recreated (not akkurately, because this existed everywhere =P,) and don't expect or want devs to have to worry about such a thing. We just don't know what evidence you want us to get. It is well known on both AK and live that archery worked on cornered mobs most of the time, definitely far more often than it did not. How can we prove that having the archery bug fixed is more akkurate than having it not work at all? We're desperately trying our hardest here to prove this.
not sure if anyone noticed of what Torven put data in the pastebin. Looked like Rangers was meleeing more than archery on these Raid bosses.
Rangers live to shoot arrows. Thats what they do. If they are meleeing, its usually because they cant use archery. That it what I have always seen. Here is some info I found on archery. Haste reduces effective delay on bows. It caps at a low value of 1.0. So even at 100% haste, a 1.7 delay bow wont reach 0.85. The client adjusts based on haste to change refresh rate on archery button. Quiver haste is additive. Client does this. So if you are a ranger always have ur best quiver option. Mac penny rolling has a setting for rate at which it resends key presses. It can vary from a delay of about 30-150 msec. You should make it go as fast as possible. A programable keyboard seems best. Tying archery to a function key. So you can macro the shit out of f12, and still be able to chat and stuff. All the advantages almost have me rolling a ranger. But i will always prefer an sk.
