I am a bit unsure about what is going on in that pastebin. A large portion of those mobs are PoFire, and all should have been arrowable under even TAKp conditions. We didn't regularly corner any PoFire mob, even Reparm sometimes got tanked in the open. It even shows no archery on permarooted mobs like HP. I truly have no idea why you're not seeing more archery on it. *edit* Seems I was misreading the start and thought it was showing 0 hits on a bunch of mobs. There is still something up with how that log got recorded, though. Every ranger and people nearby should be able to confirm we had no real issue arrowing Lord Mith Marr. A lot of VT mobs blur together, but it makes sense we generally didn't arrow the trash. Breaking mezzes was something archery loved to do. It's also weird on how many mobs register 0 hits at all. Even on things we couldn't arrow while cornered, we still arrowed before they reached the corner because it was just free damage and something we could do.
Mostly monetary, but I also am not into boxing enough to want an intense and space consuming game centre. I'm a casual. Just saying that with the exception of a few mac players with multiple rigs archery has been something that has to be attended to in order to achieve. Sure you could penny roll and make a sandwich, but you couldn't heal chain or run other toons.
Yeah I've actually got a spare mac mini sitting here that j grabbed for 50 bucks. I could set it up, but I guess realistically I'm just not that keen on it. No excuses really, just seems busy to me. I don't much care for 3 boxing unless playing alone and moving at a slow pace, I like sticking with the same keyboard for each toon. I even use a trackpad for everything. Crazy, I know. I have been working under the assumption for years that most people are playing on one computer i know only a couple personally that have spoken specifically about using several units. I was under the impression that for most rangers they sat at their ranger screen like I do, holding or tapping their ranged attack. You are right in that anyone can, without great impediment, have a seperate computer for bow dps.
Usually when you guys fix bugs they make the game harder for us. This is generally how it should be I think. My hurdle in understanding here keeps circling back to the decisions made to fix bugs that end up increasing DPS output and helping players, for example double backstab and burning affliction. Plenty of logs show these not working properly on AK but we're corrected here. In the current case we have logs showing a glaring geometry error with archery that has already been improved here with superior coding I guess (you computer guys hold mysteries i will never understand) and I guess I just see the fix to something that can be fixed to be in line with the server's goals of ironing out a working Al'Kabor. Thanks for letting us state our case. Happy to play somewhere where we all can feel heard. It's a good feeling, dialogue on building this thing we all enjoy.
I know this isn't showing a completely cornered mob or combat logs, but it does show us rangers arrowing very walled mobs on AK: http://hdvds9.com/file/download?id=ipiG26Ks4rk I recall some saying we could not even arrow walled mobs on AK, so I am just putting this here as some evidence to the contrary. I am not sure what evidence is being looked for, so I am mainly just searching for EQMac raids along with EQlive vids from before Omens of War (I believe that is about when archery issues were fixed, though I have had trouble confirming that) that show archery in use on walled mobs. This vid of people arrowing LMM from 2007 is the earliest one I can find so far. I don't know for certain if archery was fixed by then, but I shall leave it here anyway:
I'll present the data in a more concise form. Here is the Layonhands log data, but removing most of the targets that were raid trash and had < 100 blows: Krziik the Mighty -- hits: 1559 -- slashes: 1632 crushes: 1 pierces: 0 Emmerik Skyfury -- hits: 1123 -- slashes: 0 crushes: 0 pierces: 0 Babnoxis the Spider Queen -- hits: 866 -- slashes: 346 crushes: 0 pierces: 0 War Chieftan Awisano -- hits: 770 -- slashes: 9 crushes: 0 pierces: 0 Vallon Zek -- hits: 736 -- slashes: 257 crushes: 0 pierces: 0 War Chieftan Birak -- hits: 707 -- slashes: 0 crushes: 0 pierces: 0 Tallon Zek -- hits: 703 -- slashes: 390 crushes: 0 pierces: 0 High Priest of Ssraeshza -- hits: 700 -- slashes: 0 crushes: 0 pierces: 0 Xegony the Queen of Air -- hits: 594 -- slashes: 0 crushes: 0 pierces: 0 War Chieftan Galronar -- hits: 536 -- slashes: 51 crushes: 0 pierces: 0 Pyronis -- hits: 524 -- slashes: 0 crushes: 0 pierces: 0 Grioihin the Wise -- hits: 478 -- slashes: 93 crushes: 0 pierces: 0 Quavonis Firetail -- hits: 435 -- slashes: 0 crushes: 0 pierces: 0 Evynd Firestorm -- hits: 435 -- slashes: 0 crushes: 0 pierces: 0 Arch Mage Yozanni -- hits: 398 -- slashes: 46 crushes: 0 pierces: 0 Hydrotha -- hits: 347 -- slashes: 139 crushes: 0 pierces: 0 Guardian of Fire -- hits: 296 -- slashes: 37 crushes: 0 pierces: 0 Guardian of Dresolik -- hits: 267 -- slashes: 53 crushes: 0 pierces: 0 The Protector of Dresolik -- hits: 215 -- slashes: 0 crushes: 0 pierces: 0 Chancellor Kirtra -- hits: 205 -- slashes: 0 crushes: 0 pierces: 0 Jolur Sandstorm -- hits: 195 -- slashes: 62 crushes: 60 pierces: 0 Agnarr the Storm Lord -- hits: 192 -- slashes: 1179 crushes: 182 pierces: 1 King Tormax -- hits: 170 -- slashes: 447 crushes: 0 pierces: 0 Javonn the Overlord -- hits: 165 -- slashes: 0 crushes: 0 pierces: 0 Auliffe Chaoswind -- hits: 157 -- slashes: 0 crushes: 0 pierces: 0 Arch Lich Rhag`Zadune -- hits: 154 -- slashes: 0 crushes: 0 pierces: 0 Jiva -- hits: 153 -- slashes: 184 crushes: 0 pierces: 0 Blazzax the Omnifiend -- hits: 148 -- slashes: 0 crushes: 0 pierces: 0 Chancellor Traxom -- hits: 131 -- slashes: 6 crushes: 0 pierces: 0 Halon of Marr -- hits: 129 -- slashes: 11 crushes: 0 pierces: 0 Warlord Prollaz -- hits: 126 -- slashes: 0 crushes: 0 pierces: 0 Hebabbilys the Ragelord -- hits: 125 -- slashes: 0 crushes: 0 pierces: 0 High Priest Ultor Szanvon -- hits: 123 -- slashes: 0 crushes: 0 pierces: 0 Azobian the Darklord -- hits: 122 -- slashes: 0 crushes: 0 pierces: 0 Paruek the Strong -- hits: 115 -- slashes: 0 crushes: 0 pierces: 0 Omni Magus Crato -- hits: 114 -- slashes: 0 crushes: 0 pierces: 0 Pherlondien Clawpike -- hits: 107 -- slashes: 60 crushes: 0 pierces: 0 Terris Thule -- hits: 107 -- slashes: 65 crushes: 0 pierces: 0 Raex Pwodill -- hits: 104 -- slashes: 0 crushes: 0 pierces: 0 Zrexul -- hits: 102 -- slashes: 55 crushes: 2 pierces: 1 Aten Ha Ra -- hits: 90 -- slashes: 8121 crushes: 149 pierces: 0 Ralthazor, Champion of Marr -- hits: 84 -- slashes: 99 crushes: 22 pierces: 0 Baltaldor the Cursed -- hits: 84 -- slashes: 19 crushes: 0 pierces: 0 Warlord Gintolaken -- hits: 82 -- slashes: 88 crushes: 0 pierces: 0 Arlyxir -- hits: 80 -- slashes: 1948 crushes: 0 pierces: 0 Bertoxxulous -- hits: 75 -- slashes: 161 crushes: 0 pierces: 0 Blood of Ssraeshza -- hits: 68 -- slashes: 188 crushes: 6 pierces: 0 Qezzin Adan -- hits: 61 -- slashes: 241 crushes: 0 pierces: 0 Spectre of Corruption -- hits: 57 -- slashes: 191 crushes: 0 pierces: 0 Darwol Adan -- hits: 46 -- slashes: 227 crushes: 0 pierces: 0 Bishop Toluwon -- hits: 42 -- slashes: 223 crushes: 0 pierces: 0 Shei Vinitras -- hits: 36 -- slashes: 868 crushes: 0 pierces: 0 General Kizuhx -- hits: 31 -- slashes: 2600 crushes: 168 pierces: 0 Wavadozzik Adan -- hits: 28 -- slashes: 204 crushes: 0 pierces: 0 Grummus -- hits: 25 -- slashes: 889 crushes: 0 pierces: 0 Kaas Thox Xi Aten Ha Ra -- hits: 17 -- slashes: 10098 crushes: 0 pierces: 0 Ofossaa the Enlightened -- hits: 17 -- slashes: 14 crushes: 0 pierces: 0 Thall Va Kelun -- hits: 14 -- slashes: 5752 crushes: 138 pierces: 0 Rallos Zek the Warlord -- hits: 14 -- slashes: 0 crushes: 0 pierces: 0 Lord Mithaniel Marr -- hits: 12 -- slashes: 32 crushes: 2 pierces: 0 Advisor Zekuzh -- hits: 11 -- slashes: 164 crushes: 57 pierces: 0 Arbiter Korazhk -- hits: 10 -- slashes: 381 crushes: 47 pierces: 0 Rallos Zek -- hits: 8 -- slashes: 28 crushes: 0 pierces: 0 Pzo Adan -- hits: 7 -- slashes: 578 crushes: 12 pierces: 0 Zandal Adan -- hits: 7 -- slashes: 346 crushes: 0 pierces: 0 The Statue of Rallos Zek -- hits: 5 -- slashes: 470 crushes: 0 pierces: 0 Avatar of Wind -- hits: 5 -- slashes: 105 crushes: 0 pierces: 0 Meedo Adan -- hits: 5 -- slashes: 604 crushes: 0 pierces: 0 Bhaly Adan -- hits: 5 -- slashes: 522 crushes: 0 pierces: 0 Feig Adan -- hits: 4 -- slashes: 345 crushes: 0 pierces: 0 Xhut Adan -- hits: 4 -- slashes: 177 crushes: 1 pierces: 1 Diabo Xi Xin Thall -- hits: 3 -- slashes: 1809 crushes: 503 pierces: 0 Xerkizh The Creator -- hits: 2 -- slashes: 4264 crushes: 0 pierces: 0 Kavilis Adan -- hits: 1 -- slashes: 336 crushes: 0 pierces: 0 The Idol of Rallos Zek -- hits: 0 -- slashes: 1588 crushes: 0 pierces: 0 Va Xi Aten Ha Ra -- hits: 0 -- slashes: 7503 crushes: 305 pierces: 0 Raddi Adan -- hits: 0 -- slashes: 270 crushes: 0 pierces: 0 Akkapan Adan -- hits: 0 -- slashes: 318 crushes: 0 pierces: 0 Diabo Xi Va Temariel -- hits: 0 -- slashes: 10222 crushes: 683 pierces: 0 Dozekar the Cursed -- hits: 0 -- slashes: 513 crushes: 0 pierces: 0 Emperor Ssraeshza -- hits: 0 -- slashes: 810 crushes: 0 pierces: 0 Kuanbyr Hailstorm -- hits: 0 -- slashes: 534 crushes: 0 pierces: 0 Maareq the Prophet -- hits: 0 -- slashes: 183 crushes: 0 pierces: 0 To add some perspective, here is some idea of how many VT runs are in the log: eqlog_Layonhands_52[65PAL].txt 253253 [Sun Apr 28 14:31:04 2013] Va Xi Aten Ha Ra has become ENRAGED. eqlog_Layonhands_52[65PAL].txt 2175760 [Wed Jun 26 23:44:06 2013] Va Xi Aten Ha Ra has become ENRAGED. eqlog_Layonhands_52[65PAL].txt 3009400 [Thu Jul 11 18:11:30 2013] Va Xi Aten Ha Ra has become ENRAGED. eqlog_Layonhands_52[65PAL].txt 4502326 [Sun Aug 11 19:40:03 2013] Va Xi Aten Ha Ra has become ENRAGED. eqlog_Layonhands_52[65PAL].txt 5292006 [Tue Aug 20 23:12:55 2013] Va Xi Aten Ha Ra has become ENRAGED. Not very many cornered mobs with a large number of arrow hits. MM and RZ are there, but still meleeded some even when RZ AoE Rampages. VT bosses are very clearly meleed. Interestingly, Shei was almost entirely meleed despite being permarooted. I examined some larger logs other than Layonhands' and found 250 trueshots and which NPCs they were used on. 12 uses were on Time P3 bosses. Four discs on Time gods and all three times as they were in the process of wiping, except for on Tallon, a mob not always cornered. Ranger on RZ was also killing adds, getting several death blows on them. Frosst's log has 113 trueshots. None are on VT bosses. He has 10 Aten kills and 5 P3 boss kills in here. Not the only Time log either. Faults (a ranger) used his disc NINE times in his entire log. A few times were in exp groups in BoT. The three times he used it on VT bosses were on the permarooted blob, and two bosses right after pulls where arrows clearly stopped working long before the disc ended-- one boss he only got 8 shots in. Deathbot (Frosst's ranger) used his disc 18 times in the entire log. (this wasn't in the pastebin) Mobs Deathbot used disc on: Midayor, Dozekar the Cursed (nowhere near full disc, mostly meleed), misclick, Manaetic Behemoth, Rydda`Dar, a construct of nightmares, Lord Mithaniel Marr, The Protector of Dresolik, Solusek Ro, Fennin Ro the Tyrant, General Druav Flamesinger, Warlord Gintolaken (before wipe), Vyzh`dra the Cursed x 6 Some mobs Deathbot did not disc on: (to be fair, there is stuff in here he could have but didn't) eqlog_Deathbot_52_cleaned[RNG].txt 5977 [Thu Dec 27 11:56:07 2012] Dozekar the Cursed has become ENRAGED. eqlog_Deathbot_52_cleaned[RNG].txt 38069 [Tue Jan 1 23:25:01 2013] Dozekar the Cursed has become ENRAGED. (this is the only one he used on) eqlog_Deathbot_52_cleaned[RNG].txt 60148 [Mon Jan 7 15:08:18 2013] Dozekar the Cursed has become ENRAGED. eqlog_Deathbot_52_cleaned[RNG].txt 66774 [Wed Jan 9 13:07:45 2013] Dozekar the Cursed has become ENRAGED. eqlog_Deathbot_52_cleaned[RNG].txt 84019 [Tue Jan 15 01:19:53 2013] Dozekar the Cursed has become ENRAGED. eqlog_Deathbot_52_cleaned[RNG].txt 109218 [Wed Jan 23 11:46:13 2013] Dozekar the Cursed has become ENRAGED. eqlog_Deathbot_52_cleaned[RNG].txt 123442 [Wed Feb 6 07:36:57 2013] Dozekar the Cursed has become ENRAGED. eqlog_Deathbot_52_cleaned[RNG].txt 142278 [Wed Mar 6 09:46:08 2013] Dozekar the Cursed has become ENRAGED. eqlog_Deathbot_52_cleaned[RNG].txt 170129 [Wed Apr 17 13:28:15 2013] Dozekar the Cursed has become ENRAGED. eqlog_Deathbot_52_cleaned[RNG].txt 247673 [Fri May 31 00:54:29 2013] Dozekar the Cursed has become ENRAGED. eqlog_Deathbot_52_cleaned[RNG].txt 252262 [Wed Jun 5 11:48:44 2013] Dozekar the Cursed has become ENRAGED. eqlog_Deathbot_52_cleaned[RNG].txt 283559 [Tue Jun 18 13:16:40 2013] Dozekar the Cursed has become ENRAGED. eqlog_Deathbot_52_cleaned[RNG].txt 440930 [Tue Sep 10 16:07:55 2013] Dozekar the Cursed has become ENRAGED. eqlog_Deathbot_52_cleaned[RNG].txt 476462 [Wed Oct 16 13:06:39 2013] Dozekar the Cursed has become ENRAGED. eqlog_Deathbot_52_cleaned[RNG].txt 191794 [Tue May 21 21:37:07 2013] Diabo Xi Xin has become ENRAGED. eqlog_Deathbot_52_cleaned[RNG].txt 193450 [Tue May 21 22:15:45 2013] Va Xakra has become ENRAGED. eqlog_Deathbot_52_cleaned[RNG].txt 193520 [Tue May 21 22:17:05 2013] Va Xakra has become ENRAGED. eqlog_Deathbot_52_cleaned[RNG].txt 194148 [Tue May 21 22:35:40 2013] Kaas Thox Xi Ans Dyek has become ENRAGED. eqlog_Deathbot_52_cleaned[RNG].txt 202176 [Wed May 22 00:00:49 2013] Thall Va Kelun has become ENRAGED. eqlog_Deathbot_52_cleaned[RNG].txt 208173 [Thu May 23 21:32:41 2013] Va Xi Aten Ha Ra has become ENRAGED. eqlog_Deathbot_52_cleaned[RNG].txt 212319 [Thu May 23 22:02:33 2013] Kaas Thox Xi Aten Ha Ra has become ENRAGED. eqlog_Deathbot_52_cleaned[RNG].txt 215137 [Thu May 23 22:17:59 2013] Kaas Thox Xi Aten Ha Ra has become ENRAGED. eqlog_Deathbot_52_cleaned[RNG].txt 216973 [Tue May 28 15:16:51 2013] Diabo Xi Xin has become ENRAGED. eqlog_Deathbot_52_cleaned[RNG].txt 219472 [Tue May 28 16:01:08 2013] Kaas Thox Xi Ans Dyek has become ENRAGED. eqlog_Deathbot_52_cleaned[RNG].txt 227491 [Tue May 28 17:21:32 2013] Thall Va Kelun has become ENRAGED. What do the logs show discs being used on? Bosses you don't corner: P3 bosses, Xegony, Solusek Ro, PoFire minis, Fennin, permarooted bosses. The few typically cornered bosses I do see are MM, RZ and Cursed; two of which Ravenwing mentioned. I can't tell if they were cornered in the logs. MM and Cursed got lots of arrows in the Deathbot log, but he also meleed MM a bit. He seemed to not have been playing the character fully. Was some arrow gaps in the Cursed kills. I don't see many arrows on RZ. (neither ranger log did a RZ mob however) Lots of evidence for MM and maybe Cursed, but little for anything else. Evidence so far strongly suggests that arrows on cornered mobs was the exception to the rule, not the reverse. We can make certain body types arrowable in corners very easily.
Also, you guys sure sung a different tune six years ago: [Sat Jun 2 20:14:40 2012] You tell your party, 'i stand in one place and shoot arrows for 99% of the raid' [Sat Jun 2 20:15:01 2012] You tell your party, 'as long as its not cornered i can deal with it' [Thu Nov 1 17:51:05 2012] You say to your guild, 'its like watching people put on a roof with hammer and nails and standing ther ewith a nail gun and compressor' [Thu Nov 1 17:51:16 2012] You say to your guild, 'and the people say no we'd rather use the hammer and nails ' [Thu Nov 1 17:52:18 2012] You say to your guild, 'thats what cornering (not walling) feels like to rangers' [Thu Nov 1 17:53:33 2012] You say to your guild, 'rangers dps is superior to all but wizard' [Thu Nov 1 17:53:54 2012] You say to your guild, 'we have no aggro and its as high damage as anyone but wizard and higher during trueshot' [Thu Nov 1 21:39:03 2012] You tell newbs:2, 'i hold the button down but we corner stuff so im mostly melee' [Wed May 10 00:03:19 2006] Emperor Ssraeshza is struck by the destruction of ice. [Wed May 10 00:03:24 2006] Danidianya tells temtanks:9, 'now he is too cornered for archery' [Thu Oct 6 01:14:58 2005] Utdaan tells temtanks:9, 'if the mob is on the SE wall and not in the corner...rangers can use archery and pop TS' [Thu Oct 6 01:15:02 2005] Aten Ha Ra goes on a RAMPAGE! [Tue Mar 6 22:41:28 2012] Knovo tells the group, 'Warlord Gintolaken, we dont get to kill him often. Was thinking it was late' [Tue Mar 6 22:41:55 2012] Ryoku tells the raid, 'All right, four rangers, we're not going to corner him' [Tue Mar 6 22:42:21 2012] Ryoku tells the raid, 'Instead, we'll tank him along this wall to our south just like we used to tank the minis' [Sat Mar 28 22:26:40 2009] Utdaan tells the guild, 'to answer your question Saen....normally AHR is pinned deep in the corner so rangers must melee...tonight, she was mid wall most of the fight freeing up the rangers to get max DPS. we switched back to melee once she was cornered again' [Fri Jan 26 22:48:53 2007] Utdaan tells you, 'TS yes or no when LMM is still out on tiles?' [Fri Jan 26 22:51:39 2007] You tell your raid, 'Yes, the rangers can pop TS while we get LMM cornered, that extra DPS will help us' [Wed Jul 14 01:54:06 2010] Zetro tells the raid, 'Ginto also has AE rampage, like Fennin' [Wed Jul 14 01:56:10 2010] Zetro tells the raid, 'We're going to fight him reverse cornered.' [Wed Jul 14 01:56:30 2010] Bragon tells the raid, 'arrows won't hit if we do that right?' [Wed Jul 14 01:56:35 2010] Ader tells the raid, 'Correct' [Wed Jul 14 01:57:36 2010] Ader tells temtanks:9, 'Rangers wont be able to hit if he's reverse cornered, just fyi' [Wed Jul 14 01:59:12 2010] Bragon tells the guild, 'won't be no arrows if we put him in corner' [Thu Jul 18 21:50:44 2013] Loremm tells you, 'DPS is slacking tonight, lol' [Thu Jul 18 21:51:18 2013] Majo tells the guild, 'corner killed ranjah dps =/' [Thu Jul 18 21:51:29 2013] Guero tells the guild, 'way to many mobs...like LoH said...we need to take RZ fast with DPS to avoid that' [Thu Jul 18 21:52:40 2013] Esroy tells the guild, '60 in raid, about 80 in zone... that's not enough DPS for fake RZ?' [Thu Jul 18 21:53:15 2013] Kraakesolv tells the guild, 'but corner killed ranger deeps and there's only two wizards i think' Rangers getting adds instead of DPSing on RZtW: [Sat May 11 20:05:13 2013] Zelgardis tells the guild, 'Ok the reminder agian: we move in, kill fake RZ, when he depops, we will take the TLOC . take it, invis up, and run to the SW side of the pit, dont jump down or fly over when at SW corner, drop into the pit . when everyone is there, we will MGB up on manlees call . enchanters get their pets until then . when we are buffed, we will fight RZ in the SE corner . clerics stay at MAX range or die . shamys druids palys everything spot the maintank AND the clerics! rangers and bards have to aggro adds before' [Sat Jul 27 23:49:54 2013] You tell _:3, 'lol juste learned Fennin ro attacks faster when slowed' [Sat Jul 27 23:53:57 2013] You tell _:3, 'i know why we tank him in a non corner, - rangers lol' [Sat Aug 24 13:30:12 2013] Bibbitt tells the raid, 'if he's off a wall rangers/rogues will be far more useful' [Sat Aug 24 13:30:38 2013] You shout, 'we are using this corner, sorry rangers' [Sat Aug 24 13:31:23 2013] Fanglore tells the raid, 'pretarget possible btw?' [Sat Aug 24 13:32:08 2013] Elesar tells the group, 'Ofossaa the Enlightened' [Sat Oct 18 19:11:26 2008] Lyrad tells the raid, 'feel free to corner only ranger here and im poiting' [Sat Oct 18 19:11:26 2008] Mafia hits Qua Senshali Xakra for 42 points of damage. [Sat Aug 11 18:21:53 2012] Manlee tells the raid, 'guys same thing as last time i will hold him out of corner till the rangers blown their disc )' [Sat Aug 11 18:22:18 2012] Tarmac tells the raid, 'Incoming Thall Va Kelun.' [Thu Mar 1 00:55:01 2012] Bragon tells temheals:7, 'i'll sitck her on the wall on the north side' [Thu Mar 1 00:55:10 2012] Bragon tells temheals:7, 'and will play with her back and forth on the wall' [Thu Mar 1 00:55:15 2012] Ader tells temheals:7, 'that's not happening ^' [Thu Mar 1 00:55:18 2012] Bragon tells temheals:7, 'Or not' [Thu Mar 1 00:55:22 2012] Ravenwing tells the raid, 'We won't be cornering her. It moves the clerics too close to the adds, and it kills ranger DPS' [Thu Mar 1 01:05:35 2012] Terris Thule begins to cast a spell. [Sat May 20 01:58:10 2006] Bora tells you, 'he wanted me to try to hold Emp out from the corner cause the rangers wanted to use archery so he announces in group bora can you hold emp there we want to try something new' [Sat Jan 26 18:33:06 2013] Jeanluc Scores a critical hit!(872) [Sat Jan 26 18:33:06 2013] An Honorable Protector says 'You will not evade me Jeanluc!' [Sat Jan 26 18:33:29 2013] Rangerwoodelf tells destinyofficer:4, 'willing to bet the farm JL is breaking mez' [Sat Jan 26 18:33:40 2013] Edium, Guardian of Marr goes on a RAMPAGE! [Sat Jan 26 18:33:44 2013] Rangerwoodelf tells the guild, 'Corner it then arrows wont be an issue p' [Fri May 11 01:17:11 2007] Thiklan tells temtanks:9, 'tanking saryn with your back to corner, yes? so arrows can land?' [Fri May 11 01:17:32 2007] Kwelynin tells temtanks:9, 'I will keep her out of the wall' [Fri May 11 01:17:48 2007] Thiklan tells temtanks:9, 'tank you kind sir '
Cornering definitely made it a lot harder to find the right angle to land hits. And with some mobs it was impossible no matter how many angles you tried. Though I think a lot of rangers probably got frustrated and started meleeing mobs that they actually didn't have to. I know I did all the time if I couldn't find a sweet spot fast enough. Thinking about this more, if a mob was truly deep in a corner, there were 2 conditions I can think of where you could 100% hit the mob. A. If you could get high enough above the mob so that you shoot down towards it. With the steep arrow angle, the arrow would hit the mob's hitbox before it hit the wall. I specifically remember doing this in VT to hit cornered mobs. I'm sure I did it elsewhere as well. B. If the NPC model was big enough (like LMM) you could get as close as possible to the mob so that you shoot on a steep upward angle. This would allow you to hit the hitbox before the walls. These weren't the only conditions that would allow hits, but they were certainly the most consistent. Honestly I think I'm done debating it though. It seems the devs have made up their minds. I've thought it was a ridiculous bug for 16 years now, and for the last 3 years or so, I have been dreading this conversation. I dared to hope that because bugs like perma pac and double backstab (and other bugs people have mentioned here) have all been fixed on TAKP, that rangers might have their day in the sun here as well, and the nightmare inducing corner bug would finally be fixed once and for all. But alas, it appears it will live on, and in an even more unforgiving form. And I will never understand why. I'm sorry if any of my posts have come off as whiny or disengenuous. I definitely am trying to remain as objective, rational, and truthful as possible.
These are definitely don't show the full truth, as we have quite clear memories of arrowing the extremely cornered twin blobs, and these are showing a low amount of archery hits on many mobs that were definitely not cornered at all. Archery was inconsistent in corners, but I can certainly stick with my initial view that it was more often than not quite doable. Tallon Zek was always cornered. Shoved into the corner to the left of a bookcase. He was one of the hardest to gain proper archery angle on, and I was quite happy whenever I was able to find one. Many mobs you see meleed, like Shei, are likely because the players were busy. When I did Shei, I would often be boxing the MT and my ranger, with the ranger either meleeing or being in position to pull adds away. I can pick at these logs for ages, but it's clear we only have our memories as proof of what happened with this bug, and that seems to not be good enough. Please, we are just pleading with you guys to not make us lesser warriors. We're all just here to hang out with a great community and enjoy our favored classes for some fun AK nostalgia, and this really hurts that. I was never a log keeper, so I cannot give you a detailed counterpoint filled with numbers; only what we rangers experienced, and would like to at minimum continue experiencing here. Rogues got their double backstab issues fixed, would it really be so bad for us to not have to deal with this, either? We'll never replace wizard boxes, anyway. There's no balance worries. It just keeps us from feeling like we shouldn't even bother bringing our ranger main to raid, when anything else would be so much more useful. That's all I've got. Just one of many rangers begging for some mercy, not wanting to join the others in main switching. Just wanting to enjoy some relaxing AK. I do greatly respect all the effort you put in and how thorough you are in everything you do here, and just this once I ask you to trust our ranger memories, and have some mercy on our poor little selves before we're stuck being at a state that just stops being enjoyable.
I think that's a little dramatic. Raid bosses are not everything. Some of them will be shootable. Many of them will have you on other tasks where you cant use a 2 minute disc anyway. 90% of your play time will involve no corners. It's extremely hard to argue with those logs. I have been a ranger since Aug 6, 2000 and this will do nothing to change that. Also, please stop saying we are lesser warriors. We are not. They melee slightly better.
BTW, I forgot to use a quiver in my bow parse (told you it was preliminary). Using a fleeting quiver, and a Time bow, I clocked the ranger doing 245ish DPS with 125% haste on a 0 resist 200 ac level 55 target with 1849 atk. At 2205 atk, I clocked it at 275ish DPS. Reminder: that's not disced.
Raids are pretty important to a lot of people playing. Knowing I would be better just not bringing my ranger at all and focusing on my cleric box is not something I take any joy in. And yes, we are lesser warriors. Them meleeing slightly better makes us lesser warriors on raids, by definition. I think the amount of ranger main switches that happen should tell you that archery and raiding does mean a lot to many of us.
Well I can tell you from plenty of experience that raid bosses will die whether you show or not, one character or three. Just because you aren't going to be top DPS all the time doesn't mean you are worthless.
I don't wish to get into a back and forth about this, but knowing you would be better off bringing a warrior than your DPS class is severely demotivating. Severely. It's not about chart topping dps; it's just about fulfilling your role as DPS. This response battle is silly, so I'll leave this little side argument here. Sounds like it would be fun to reach that point. If it's low aggro damage you're worried about, few would be opposed to you upping aggro by even obscene amounts. We don't mind using Jolt or having a risk to our archery, as all we desire is the ability to use our archery. We just plead for mercy.
I don't have anything of value to add to the underlying debate. I simply want to post to say how much respect I have for the amount of time and effort Torven put into this issue.
All rangers chose the wrong chain dps class is what I'm seeing. I typically chose to not use trueshot because I was often the ranger who did the WS pulling in destiny when I was around. Also as far as time and discing goes - utdaan usually called it for us to use trueshot (the mayor!)
One thing Torven is making abundantly clear here - it is totally awesome having full parses including non melee damage available to people! *cough*
No one is arguing that corners were'nt an issue for rangers on AK. We are arguing the bug is more unforgiving and debilitating here than it was there. We are arguing that if things like permapac and double backstab are being fixed here, why are rangers getting the shaft?
Parses confirm what i said earlier. Within trueshot they will top the chart. Without they barely appear in top 10 behind rogues monks wiz and sk (yep sk dps is no joke in pop) and their melee dps is > anyway if ts isnt avail. My rangers on pc never used archery outside of ts unless the fight was a massive aoe fight. It was a dps loss to do so over melee/nukes Also fro was basically designed to be a ranger fight lol. No melee dps on that. All i see here is rangers using ts on the most dangerous mobs (reparm fro) and meleeing on lesser mobs cause ts was probly down and melee was a better output then. Re: other stuff Reverse corner is mob pushed deep in corner and tank out of corner. That never let archery through. Ahr room was fussy and usually archery didnt work. Emp was the same way.
Wow, that's a pretty amazing log find. I don't know where you managed to dig up that, but that must have taken some effort to rediscover. Thank you for all the time put into this. The logs do go in line with what we generally saw ranger dps as in PoP. With an EP bow, we only rival other melees until they also get EP weps, which seems fair. Melee begins to rapidly outclass bow damage once equal weaponry is acquire. There are no really great bows in Luclin, really. Bane DMG bows seem nice, but bane dmg isn't the same as a weapon with that ratio by default, as far as I remember. Luclin DPS information seems very hard to come by, but I imagine rogues/monks beat archery in this era (we likely pull ahead with trueshot,) while archery defeats our melee. That's also true. We often didn't trueshot even when it was up, because it wasn't always known when your WS might be needed. I recall saving trueshot on General Reparm because I could use it to give raid time to recover if things started going badly. Did it for a full duration once and even managed to back out alive after taking a few hits! Is there a chance we could possibly get corner archery enabled on a trial basis? Allowing us to easily collect logs for a 2 week period? Perhaps tweak aggro on archery during that period too, and hopefully we can come to a point where everyone is at least content with our existence in the game.
Disclaimer: I have never played a ranger, and I hate all rangers and think they are only good for eating DT's and WS transfers. That said, half those comments from the old logs seem to be taken out of context or apply to mobs/models that people have already conceded could not be arrowed while cornered. There are numerous comments with some variant of "corner killed ranger dps" or "cornering, sorry rangers" etc. Spending half the fight finding a sweet spot to shoot arrows from will certainly kill DPS, yes. That isn't the same as "corners stopped all arrows in every case, period." Many times it likely may not have been possible with PC-model collision and/or mezzed adds in the way etc. Other times it may well have been impossible due to the specific mob model and corner geometry. But I do have vague recollection of rangers being able to bow certain cornered mobs with some effort in finessing their positioning. This is from many months of experience raiding high end VT and PoP encounters on AK. I can't recall which specific mobs/encounters though, sorry.
