Open Discussion about Archery and Corners

Discussion in 'General Discussion' started by Linkamus, Aug 24, 2018.

  1. Linkamus

    Linkamus People Like Me

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    While going through VT tonight, I remembered for a certainty that when I was standing in the position you see me in in this screenshot, rangers could certainly hit a cornered blob2 with arrows (Due to the downward angle in which we were shooting), while if we were on ground level shooting purely horizontally, we could not hit. An anecdote based on a 5+ year old memory, yes, but I am sure of it. Take it for what it's worth.

    Obviously any hopes I had of the corner bug being removed completely have been dashed, but I would at least plead - in the spirit of Akuracy - for our distinguished devs (Trying to suck up here!) to at least make it so that if we shoot at a certain degree of a downward or upward angle toward a cornered mob, that we can hit. I throw myself at the mercy of all the devs, in the name of all TAKP tree-huggers!

    [​IMG]
     
  2. gardnerjens

    gardnerjens People Like Me

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    new graphics :(
     
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  3. Torven

    Torven I Feel Loved Staff Member

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    Kaas Thox Xi Aten Ha Ra -- hits: 17 -- slashes: 10098 crushes: 0 pierces: 0

    Seems you were the only one who knew about it.

    Examples like that are useful (actually required) for me to make some sort of approximation. However if I were to implement that, then you're also getting approximations of the other restrictions to archery that we don't have in right now. Careful what you wish for.

    It's a tricky thing to implement because I'd have to try not to allow archery on stuff that shouldn't allow it-- or least not many.

    I wonder if this blob had a Z/centerpoint that was low to the floor.
     
  4. Linkamus

    Linkamus People Like Me

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    I seem to remember it was one of the old school Temerity rangers showing me that trick, actually. Either Utdaan or Thiklan most likely.

    Also, I don't mind *minor* archery restrictions SO much. Trying to find the right place to stand to land hits was a fun game in of itself. But when there's a hard-coded switch to just turn off archery as soon as the mob is cornered, it's extremely frustrating. And while the corner bug is even more debilitating here on TAKP to the ranger class, yes, it was frustrating on AK as well. My love of the ranger has always outweighed any of that frustration and any desire to roll a different class, I suppose.

    Anyway, the following cheesy illustrations are how I remember it. Not 100% of the time was this accurate, but I would say most of the time it was, and I think if archery were to be made to work like the following drawings, that this would be about as close to AK functionality as you could get.

    Yes, I understand that the first image implies that if you did make these changes, a wall nerf would be incoming that would force rangers to get close to the wall in which the mob resides in order to be able to hit it. But I'm trying to be objective here. Obviously my subjective opinion is that all wall / corner bugs should be obliterated forever, but if Akuracy - bugs and all - is the goal, then I think this is as close as you'd be able to get when it comes to archery:

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]
     
    Last edited: Sep 12, 2018
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  5. Mitya

    Mitya Well-Known Member

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    Man.. you know these discussions are serious business when someone breaks out the diagrams :)
     
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  6. Foxboxx

    Foxboxx Well-Known Member

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    All I can add here is that my memories of arrowing the twin blobs match up with Link's. The diagram is neat, too =P.
     
  7. Haynar

    Haynar Administrator Staff Member

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    I know mob collisions are a sphere. It seems to be collisions with a wall will have a side embedded in a wall. For archery to work, you need to have an intersection that goes in the sphere and exits the other side without hitting a wall.

    It likely has to pass through a certain point in the sphere. It could be center. Thus why certain angles work. Avoiding the wall surface.

    I am thinking a ray intersecting a sphere in direction of the arrow. Must pass through the center of sphere and contact the surface of sphere on other side.
     
    Last edited: Sep 14, 2018
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  8. Neealana

    Neealana People Like Me

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    So... Linkamus needs to edit his diagram ... the cornered mob changes from a plane to a sphere !
     
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  9. Linkamus

    Linkamus People Like Me

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    This actually sounds like it could be correct. Though due to the inconsistency of the bug, perhaps it was a cube, and not a sphere? (I could be totally wrong). Also I would assume the bottom of the sphere would rest on the same plane as the floor? (so that arrows couldn't be stopped by the floor)
     
  10. Haynar

    Haynar Administrator Staff Member

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    Collisions usually use a ray and a sphere or a ray and a triangle. Or a sphere and triangle. So most libraries have those as part of what they support. They don't have cubes as part of that kind of collisions. Cubes would be broken down to their constituent triangles to form the surface.
     
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  11. Sketchy

    Sketchy People Like Me

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    Apparently Link can draw more than his bow.
     
  12. Linkamus

    Linkamus People Like Me

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    That makes sense, Haynar. In that case you're probably right!
     
  13. Neopolitan

    Neopolitan Member

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    This bums me out as a player coming from p99 and enduring years of ranger hate only to find out rangers can’t be rangers in the era that is commonly known as when rangers and hybrids come into form. I mean Paladins and SK get a ton of love in this era but ranger love is mitigated by a collision bug?

    Not sure how it isn’t considered a bug. What world does it make sense that a highly skilled Legolas type character can’t hit a mob standing still just because it’s in a corner?

    Ranger parsing high on a 72 minute disc isn’t game breaking. It’s class balancing. Truly seems like a mistake to not correct this. Had I known this I probably wouldn’t have made a ranger. I took the time to read all of this thread, hoping for logic to rise to the top but I’m shocked.
     
  14. Barnd0g

    Barnd0g Well-Known Member

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    Never too late to reroll :p
     
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  15. Tryfan

    Tryfan People Like Me

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    I am willing to bet there are more ex-ranger mains on the server than any other class.
     
  16. Lenas

    Lenas I Feel Loved Staff Member

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    Which is crazy because we just began our ascent into godhood.
     
  17. Tuluvien

    Tuluvien People Like Me

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    I'm a Forever Ranger no matter how much I complain.
     
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  18. Pithy

    Pithy I Feel Loved

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    Huh. I'm a Forever Complainer no matter how much I range.
     
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  19. gardnerjens

    gardnerjens People Like Me

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    Huh I'm stranging forever, this way my jokes aren't getting any better
     
  20. Morbo

    Morbo Active Member

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    Huh, she told me I'm her forever lover. Don't you remember?
     
  21. Haynar

    Haynar Administrator Staff Member

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    Always a bridesmaid. Never a bride.
     
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  22. Jugo!

    Jugo! People Like Me

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    Breaking the topic thread- but actually happy my parses were used. Wish I had kept all hits on Fanglore! For those RZ kills, rangers often were kiters for the trash, borrowing bard speed, hence the reason you don't see much there, I think Cicero had a cleric in the rot, as well.

    AK (comparatively speaking) IMHO, was a low-effort server (don't take it personally guys!) so I'm not surprised to see so many logs of rangers meleeing. I think they just enjoy having the option to put in the extra work to bow if inclined to. Humans like options, instead of being locked into something.

    Also, am curious how Time Paladins rate vs live mobs? I assume less than even Ele warrior DPS. I know it's more work for you Torven, but I did appreciate seeing the stats you threw up. I may need to roll my Knight when I return after Uni...

    Devs and researchers deserve a /beer.

    Edit: Realized after the fact due to same skills/aa's, I could just negate the SK's spell dps that Torven had posted and come out with a good approx for Pally live dps- 140 2h, 130 for 1h (assuming Hopebringer is reasonably close to the SK counterpart) Pallies get a live proc buff, but maybe thats 1-3 dps extra. Pretty much what I assumed, worse than Ele War dps :p Pretty neat that Slay Undead basically doubles their dps, though (with spells) permanently, but conditionally.
     
    Last edited: Oct 5, 2018
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  23. Tewaz

    Tewaz New Member

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    Let's bring this topic back up!

    I made a ranger for AM3 and EQ. I'm grinding my way to however many AAs it will take and I would love to use this in a raid. I'm fine with limitations to keep it from being OP for sure, but let's at least give it a shot!
     
  24. Haynar

    Haynar Administrator Staff Member

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    Nothing has changed. Convince ur guild not to wall/corner mobs. Problem solved.

    Archery is Akurate.

    H
     
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  25. showstring

    showstring I Feel Loved

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    Sorry for your loss
     
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  26. lurari

    lurari People Like Me

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    Except every person who played a leveled and AA'd Ranger on TAKP and AK disagrees with that part.
     
  27. Lenas

    Lenas I Feel Loved Staff Member

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    ...except for like a million log entries of AK rangers complaining about it and never one mention of these "sweet spots."
     
  28. Haynar

    Haynar Administrator Staff Member

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    All I have to go by is what has been presented based on the logs Torven has gone through. And the comments made by players.

    From my outside position, looking at the presented evidence. I support the conclusions Torven came to. No matter how unpopular.

    H
     
  29. thucydides

    thucydides People Like Me

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    didn't we just get off this merry-go-round?
     
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  30. Haynar

    Haynar Administrator Staff Member

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    Its kind of like Monk AC. There is an associated timer, that will cause it to be brought up over and over, until its changed.