Courtesy and Etiquette over Named Spawns

Hello TAKP friends,

There are a few mobs in PoP that are groupable and provide some very exciting chances at getting SPs or even better, glyphed runes!

Up to this point in PoP we have been in our own lanes and working with, primarily, our own guilds in the safe haven that the rotation has provided us. As we begin to lay down pipe in new territories I'd like to ask that we help each other by identifying some etiquette standards so we don't burst those pipes.

Sometimes there are camps that are only held by a single group, and that camp has a spawn timer of 6 hours, or 3 days with a 12 hours variance. Those seem to be common throughout the PoP zones. I can think of camps like in Bastion of Thunder ground floor wing bosses which are 6 hour spawns and each wing (except for earth) is one groupable. Some areas like PoN spider camps, or Bubonian caves camp, have a 3.5ish day named spawn nestled at the heart of that camp. How would you feel if you were actively killing at a camp and the named mob popped. You are excited and begin pulling in the direction of that mob when another group invis past you and kills it. They say that they have been holding the timer for the mob and therefore have a right to it. Or, before it spawns, a trio comes and sits on the named mob location. No other communication was done. Is this right? You would feel cheated. This has begun at some of these camps as guilds who have enjoyed the luxury of holding timers in a 1-guild-per-zone-environment are forced to experience those zones with a larger population.

I suggest that if we are the holders of a timer and we see a group in that camp, we would first communicate with them, informing them that a mob is up or about to be up and that they have been holding the timer. That they want to see if the group has an interest in killing the named mob and if not, to allow the timer holder to form a group to kill it. It is then up to the group who holds the camp to respond and either outcome is acceptable.

I believe it is not acceptable to leapfrog a group, simply because someone holds a timer.

Can we come to an enforceable consensus about this?

 

Holding a timer is a garbage excuse to "claim" a mob. That's great, you know when the mob might spawn, that also means you could have claimed the camp if it was empty and been active there instead of just trying to snipe a mob.

If a group is camping a spot with a rare spawn, they should have dibs on that mob no question asked. If they don't want to attempt to kill it, or say they can't, then you can have access to it. But the group actively camping has dibs.

 

BoT appears to be the hotspot for this sort of behavior right now. Common courtesy tells me that if a group that is both (a) in a wing and (b) actively working or clearing to that wing's named, they should be entitled to that named. However, I'm seeing reports that people are leapfroging and snaking named for various reasons that they feel are justified. In the end, this server still does have a PNP that needs to be followed by the player base.

Don't snake named from groups actively working to down them.

 

"Holding a timer" does not give anyone rights to a mob. 15 people could be "holding a timer" for xx mob. It is a sad thing that we need to request to lay down Etiquette rules. That has never been needed before.

 

The only etiquette rule that needs to be laid down is if you feel you've been wronged by stealing your rare mob, reach out to their guild leader or put them on blast in RNF.

 

We have a few people that are about to take a break, due to sniping named mobs.

Because you have the timer, does not give you the right to a camp.

Please let staff know who is doing this, because we are keeping track of people who are repeat offenders.

 

I'm aware that there are actual rules in place to avoid this behavior:

"Camp is defined as camping a small area which can spawns roaming / non roaming special names and any static npc as well as any pathers that enters the vicinity. This does not include roamers that spawns outside the camping area. Roamers that can roam the entire region is FFA.​

Quite simply, use camp check if in doubt when entering a zone.
You are not required to do so, but if you take the time and effort to travel across a map and discover a camp or spawn is already taken, you can only blame yourself.
If a camp is taken, this is not a winner takes all server. The first person in the spot has first shot.
Regardless of spawn time, the person there has the right to first engage.
If they are afk and do not interact after 10 mins, or die from the spawn. You can essentially take over the camp.
If a group wipes or travels away, that group gives up rights to that camp.
Cross zone camp claims are not enforceable in any form. If you are not there, it is not yours.
A lack of reply to a camp check is not grounds for you to force-ably take over the camp.
Merely being in the zone does not qualify you to take a camp either, you must be "at" the spawn or camp.
If no mob is up and a player is at the camp, it is theirs until the 10 mins pass after spawn with no interaction. Trying to solicit a response from a player at an empty camp does nothing to "claim" said camp.​

Training or intentionally getting a group or player killed in order to claim the camp is at the very least a week suspension.
The staff reserves the right to impose anything more drastic, but not limited to xp rollbacks, item removal (example: if zone is keyed for entry, removing offenders key), or ban."​

The courtesy part of this really on the line that sates "If no mob is up and a player is at the camp, it is theirs until the 10 mins pass after spawn with no interaction." If, for example, a group is at Tables camp in Earth wing and the earth boss spawns, they could invis and get to him in under 10 minutes. However, if they have a charmed pet with weapons and such, they might rather clear up instead. Trash mobs have quite a lot of HP and they might not interact with the boss within a 10 minute window. The letter of the law was intended for mobs with Kunark level HP. So i think courtesy and etiquette agreements need to be instituted here.

 

Reaching out to guild is one thing, but when its an officer of the guild, and this has been a repeat offense for some. We have a few people who are becoming real issues and doing this repeatedly, so reaching out to staff is another. Because we will remove them.

RnF will be closed permanently if it becomes a shitshow of name and shame.

 

On your way to a camp is not camping a camp.

 

This is exactly what's being discussed. Rules as written, if you aren't in the named room when the named spawns, even if you are in a different portion of the wing, then it's "not your camp".

Staff are clearly aware that there are issues with people leapfrogging people currently in wings to snipe that wing named and are against it. So developing common courtesy rules that apply to this situation seems like the primary objective here.

 

If you're in Earth wing and you're not pulling/clearing the giants by Gaukr (and it's open), you should be.

 

I agree with the overall sentiment here, that it's important to clarify what's considered OK, what's considered a "camp", mobs you're allowed to "camp" or not, etc.

Example 1: a BoT ground floor regular named spawns, let's say in the Tables area of the Earth Wing, after a previous group leaves. Nobody is immediately nearby, mobs are full respawn in the surrounding area. There's multiple groups somewhat nearby, one group is in the main 4 way area pulling random mobs, and another group is at the end of the Earth Wing, but nobody is actually currently "camping" the mob that spawns. Both of these 2 groups start heading toward that mob to pull it. One scenario I see happening are that one group sees the other group pulling mobs close to theirs, and they are the first to say "Tables camped" in OOC. Do they get rights to the mob because they called dibbs? Can the other group dispute that claim in OOC, saying "you claimed X camp in OOC 15 minutes ago, this camp was FFA". Who is right? Is it really FFA, and first to pull it gets it? Is the first to "dibbs" a mob in OOC the victor, even if they weren't actually camping that mob or anything in the room when it spawned?

Example 2: a BoT ground floor Wing Boss Named spawns (these are 6 hour repops? 12 hour repops?), and nobody is in the vicinity, that room and entire wing are full repop. A more casual (but still very capable) group starts clearing in slowly from the entrance of that wing, hasn't said anything in OOC about claiming a camp or anything, but does have the direct intention of going after that boss. That group is still killing the entrance mobs when another group invises right past them, all the way up to the boss, pacifies most of the room, and pulls the boss very quickly, also without saying anything in OOC about claiming any camp. Is that mob FFA? Is anyone in the wrong here?

It's honestly very tricky. I can see legitimate arguments from both sides/groups on each of these things. Nitpicking and lawyerquesting super super sucks, but so does getting wronged, so it's probably important to clarify what gives which groups the "rights" to different mobs in different scenarios.

 

The second example above is easy to answer: one group is clearly heading toward the named and is then leapfrogged by the other, who sees them heading there and wants to beat them there. The group clearing was the first to intend on downing the mob.

Communication solves a lot of things here. Common courtesy solves the rest.

 

Yeah, its amazing how none of this is an issue when people start seeing other players online as other human beings instead of just pixels on the screen. Simply ask the other group if they have intentions to kill said named. Even offer to help and speed up any clear, then you all can roll on your ornate that will be upgraded in 2 months. Are your pixels that important? We're all here to have a good time.

 

I think its important not to clarify it, this is not P99, we don't want to have these kind of strict rules, good behaviour and intentions should dictate actions.

Example 1, whoever gets there first obviously has the camp
Example 2, its clear a group is clearing there, let them have it.

BoT is for the most part quite simple. 3 of the wings really only hold one group, so if the boss or a named is up, they will obviously be going for it. Earth is a little bit different, but whichever group is furthest up will then be having Gaukr or whatever his name is. Don't overcomplicate it. If you have to invis past a group without communicating with them to get to a mob, then you are probably in the wrong.

 

This happened the other day. I was at tables and we knew that the earth boss was going to pop. So we moved up as we were clearing. I had a charmed elemental with a flint dagger and all the goodies and he was from entrance. So I didn't want to have to backtrack to get him again. No invis for us. Another group started pulling up to tables and essentially was saying they wanted Gaukr but saw us moving in. That they would take Tables if we were leaving for Gaukr. I said "ya know, that seems pretty aggressive. Why don't you just come kill Guakr with us and we can all roll on a rune and then you can find a group somewhere else and let us go back to tables." We did that. I don't think we HAD to do that and i think we shouldn't have been threatened to lose Tables either.

No rune dropped, but we should just live in a world where we aren't a bunch a kids trying to claim their seat on the couch before the family movie begins or trying to yell shotgun before a trip to the supermarket. We are adults and its a game.

Communicate with each other.

 

Flip scenario. I held the timer for Gaukr for about a week and at the end of it there was a scenario where someone was at tables about an hour before his spawn and i started a dialog. I sent them a message that went like this "hey, FYI, Gaukr is going to spawn in an hour. Are you willing to let me and my group clear upper earth area in anticipation of his spawn? Will you be around and like to go after him when he does spawn?" They replied saying they didn't know his timer and might not have even seen it had I not said anything, so sure, we could clear up and kill the upper area.

He could have lied. But courtesy and etiquette were upheld here.

 

Another great moment. The last piece i needed for the alternate access key to Torment was the matriarch venom sack in PoN. We were holding the timer for her which we assumed was 3 days exact and turned out it had a 12 hour variance. I was camping some toons there after the raid, expecting to check at 3am or so when i saw she was up and Destiny had wiped to her. I could have rallied my troops to swoop as they were cleaning up. But instead i sent them a tell with my scenario and they said they were only looking for the SPs anyway. They didn't need the sacks. So we worked together and downed her and all was right with the kingdom. And if they needed it, that is fine. We would have just farmed constructs until we got more sacks. It just isn't worth hurting people for pixels.

 

i mean this is simple. if a group is in a wing and a named is up, they have rights to it even if they are in a different room of that camp because they are camping the wing. UNLESS you have already spoken to each other and divded up the wing or something. you cant just come in and say oh ur room over and a named is up, clearly this is free for me. pfft, thats just greed. Just because u arent IN an ajacent room doesnt mean its not part of your camp. Lets take BoT wings for an example. If u are pulling to a certain room, it should be obvious that your camp consists of more than just the 2-3 mobs IN that certain room. clearly that isnt going to feed a group. if you are in a wing you got dibs on whole wing and if u want to split it up or kill it all is your option. there is plenty of camps to go around, 4 wings, CY, 4 towers, and some wings can be split, no need to fight ever. Just ASK first if there is a group near where u are, even if that room is up, they may be clearing to it from their camp, pulling mobs in or maybe they had to pause a sec for rez a player. be courteous and not greedy folks

 

See the thing is, and I want to remain respectful here, so please don't take my tone wrong, but it kind of sounds like in the scenario you mentioned, you're the one trying to call shotgun while not moving from the best seat on the couch... I don't want this to be R&F, but do you see where I'm coming from? You dibbs'd more than 1 thing at the same time... Can you do that? If nobody else is around, you can play with all the toys from the toybox, but when other kids show up, and they want to play with toys too, you can't just keep 'em all, even if you were the first kid in the playroom. As I understand it, the technicality of it would be that you'd have to pick which camp you're keeping, and you WOULD be the one with the rights to pick, having been there first, but I'd think you'd have to give up tables if you were going to move to Gaukr camp, right? Or is this wrong? (Edit: I'm totally OK with being wrong here, I'm just trying to clarify, as I had understood that technically, a group couldn't claim both if there was another group interested in also playing the game in one of those 2 places)

To be fully honest, I'm VERY much not familiar with Bastion of Thunder, nor most of Planes of Power and camps (especially Elemental+), so I'm mostly just playing Devil's Advocate here, wanting to do what little part I can by encouraging the discussion around agreements/courtesy/rulings, and helping find some clarity & definition that I can refer to if/when needed. I personally played on Sullon Zek on the Good Team back in the day, and basically EXP'd in Plane of Innovation and Crypt of Decay, because the Evil and Neutral teams out-gunned us to an absurd extreme, so again, I know very little about what most of these camps entail. I'm very excited to play PoP for reals this time though!

And on that note, I just want to say thank you to the Dev's. This is awesome, and I'm enjoying it a lot. And to everyone else, let's all do what we can to keep it enjoyable for everyone.

 

So you are suggesting that an entire wing (even which a group cannot fully clear, and is not a small area) should be considered off limits? A group at tables should not just immediately have claim to a wing spawn. I am confused. There has been an issue with leapfrogging for sure, and BoT has been a bit of a mess, but to lock 30+ mobs for xp out becuase you are "in a wing" seems a bit excessive.

Also, how are these breaks you are talking about being selectively chosen haynar? there are a few of the worst offenders (who roam free as we speak in BoT) while others are in the timeout chair.

I agree something needs to be done and agreed upon, but it should be fair and not targeted.

 

It is true that one group can camp an entire wing's named spawn with extreme ease. You can invis to all locations. A group with only 2 non-charm dps can clear all krigers and Gaukr in 20 minutes. There is no question about that for any of the wings. I was speaking about the fringe scenario where a group has a charmed pet with weapons and gear and would not want to have to invis from spawn to spawn to keep them clear between tables and Gaukr. In that scenario someone might take more than the 10 minutes the rules imply to clear through high HP trash mobs to get to him. But in all cases, the wings of BoT (lightning, earth, air, and water) are a one group scenario. It is true that the entry area to earth is often not done because it is strictly xp mobs and no named potentials. There are often groups killing earth entrance as a sort of waiting area for another wing to open up.

 

I would say a charmed pet in pop is not a fringe scenario but lacking one would be more the fringe.

I am specifically speaking to the rules which clearly state
"Merely being in the zone does not qualify you to take a camp either, you must be "at" the spawn or camp."

does that not apply in BoT? Being at tables is not being at Gaukr spawn, you are merely in the zone.

 

Isn't tables the camp for everything further up including Gaukr? You can easily clear from tables to him.

 

Seeing this thread all i can think is that elementals are going to be a mess.

 

I just stated earth is one camp. Mokli said earth is one camp. Solar said earth is one camp. If you were confused, please refer to any of these statements stating that earth is, in fact, one camp.

In reference to charmed pet dps. Maybe it will become more normal when people have Call of the Archmage and Command of Druzzil on every toon. Currently, i would say most camps still not do have a charmed lvl 60 pet. That being said, fair point about the need to communicate being stronger as charmed pets become more common. Which leads us back to the need for my original post. Communicate and apply courtesy to people camping a wing.