Hello, TAKP! I’m a relatively new boxer and I have some questions about tanking. When PoP comes around, how important will it be to have a plate tank in a 3 box? I’m a casual player that probably won’t ever have raid gear and I’m mostly looking to level and maybe camp some items. I’m also not interested in using an ENC charm pet for tanking. Would a SK/PAL/WAR as tank allow me to do a lot more content than a BST/RNG assuming group gear only? How about mage pet tanking? Would a caster-based group be better with my gear limitations? Any advice is appreciated!
depends on the zone, in PoP plate tanks do much better compared to rangers and beasts in old world content, once you get past tier 2 type stuff ranger and beast wont be as feasible
Completely anecdotal opinion based on observations from AK. A beastlord is just as good as a plate tank in non-raid gear.
If you aren't a raider that will mean you will never be grouping in the Elemental Planes. If that is the case, the top tier of zones you will have access to are BoThunder and eventually HoH/Tactics (once they enable by-level unlocking of zones). In these zones, a Beastlord or Ranger with solid group gear (Ornate, Halls of Testing or Elemental tradeskill sold stuff) should tank reliably with a cleric or druid healer behind them and a slower. If you're doing a ranger I would definitely suggest your 3rd be a Chanter or Shaman for slow. Mage pet tanking in T2/3 zones is going to be very rough I think. Though admittedly I have limited experience with this, maybe someone who used a 65 mage on AK can speak more about it. I can't say I ever ran across a group relying on a mage pet tank, but that isn't to say it wasn't doable. It really isn't until you are trying to do harder named like the BoT Wing named, or some Elemental named or even the level 68 PoFire/Water trash camps where you really want a Plate Tank/Charmed Pet + Cleric + Slower or to not bother with them.
Alternate access quests for HoH and Tactics will exist too, won't they? I remember doing them on Live before access was granted based on level. https://everquest.allakhazam.com/db/quest.html?quest=2247 https://everquest.allakhazam.com/db/quest.html?quest=2292
I used to play with a monk friend most nights. He was able to tank the wing bosses in BoT that drop ornate leg molds (Gaukr etc.) despite the "terrible monk AC". We were in quite a bit of VT gear. Our group was usually Monk, Cleric, Shaman, Wizard, Mage for what it's worth.
Was that on AK or live? Live only had harsh Monk AC issues for a short while. Before the over nerf, they could tank like plate classes on live.
I guess you guys are just trolling about monk AC, but I think it's interesting to think about why it is the way it is. When that was designed the idea was that some classes were better at using armor while others relied on their innate skill or magical defenses. The cloth casters benefit less from worn items relative to the other classes, but they benefit more from their defense skill and magical AC (like Aegolism) than other classes. Players figured this out even though it's not explained in the game, and they know that the casters are not as gear dependent as the warrior types. Monks are designed so they don't need equipment, they rely on their bare fists, their evasion, and they can block if they end up in a spot where they do have to fight directly. The game shows a visible penalty for monks who are carrying around too much equipment, and their armor benefit from items is capped low for the same reason. They simply don't need gear, it does them more harm than good because it's more weight, in the original design anyway. Unfortunately that doesn't work for scaling monks up through expansions so they started using weapons instead of fists and wearing high AC expansion armor. I'm not sure why this was necessary, but maybe that's the best they could come up with in kunark/velious since there wasn't AA at the time. Monks could have scaled by improving their damage/defense skills somehow without equipment, as an alternative. It changed at some point where every class can do everything and all items have every stat, but this is how I understand it to be in old EverQuest. Monks could wear rubicite metal armor in 99, which goes against this whole idea of not relying on armor/weapons, but it was eventually changed to align with the 'no possessions' design.
That was on AK. Yep. Been friends irl since we were like 6 years old. Absolutely just trolling about monk AC. I never knew about the nerf until this server started. We never really thought we needed a real tank for our group.
He got a few characters up to 59 and took a semi-permanent break because life got too busy. Judging by the gear, he stopped playing before Luclin came out.
Thanks for all the great info, everyone! Interesting about monks doing ok as tanks in some of the easier content. I had written them off due to the AC nerf, but maybe I’ll add it back into the mix!
Possibly relevant: monk mitigation will improve in PoP, when their returns on AC over the soft-cap will increase from 5% (Luclin) to 8.3%. That's almost double the value of over-cap AC that they see now. And mitigation is only one aspect of defense: there's also hitpoints, resists, avoidance (whiffs), dodges and discs. Monks have good hitpoints, can gear for resists without sacrificing much (no need for high-AC items), avoid as well as anyone, have the best dodges of any class by far, and have one of the best defensive discs in stonestance (voiddance is also good). Monks will never be as overpowered defensively here as they are on P99, but they're very solid. Aggro's an issue for monk tanks, though. They have the same aggro mechanics as warriors, but unlike warriors their best weapons usually don't have aggro procs.
I always felt like BL did well enough. That said, I don’t think many would regret rolling an SK for all-around utility. If I hadn’t wanted to try Warrior for a change, I sure would have.
I remember duoing Klandicar (unslowed) when 2boxing a potime geared war and elemental geared cleric, if that helps. Wars are super strong in PoP. I also recall dueling a potime geared monk on the war and he couldn't hurt me due to too much AC, but ofc, dueling/PvP is kinda broken in this game anyways.
From my experience in this era, I had two rangers. My first was NTOV geared with some pre elemental armor. Plane of valor was about the top he could tank, and it required slow and solid heals (druid/cleric). Our paladin who was equal geared was so much better of an option and required much less healing. My next ranger was ele/time geared when GOD came out, and I was able to tank BOT and POV much easier. Even shaman was able to maintain solid pulls with heals and slows. Beastlords seem to do a better job and obviously have some better tools. But I would say you'd be hindering yourself in POP if you don't plan to raid and don't have a plate tank.
Rangers are much better at acquiring aggro than a BST while also having higher mitigation than the BST due to them wearing chain over leather. But Beastlords get Block instead of Parry where Block is twice as effective as parry so the BST would prevent hits more than the ranger but when hit will usually take more damage. This is neglecting the other utilities of either class though and which 'tank' you choose depends on the other two characters to go with them.
Beastlords also get a 65% slow in PoP. Tack that on to their solid tanking, good DPS, mana regen, haste buffing, paragon, etc., and they become a strong choice for most trios.
Or. Wait a second. And this is a wild idea here but tank with your charmed mob and then shoot the bad guy with arrows!
Much better is probably subjective here. Tainted Breath is an incredible agro generation tool for Beastlords.
This is correct. Both Beastlords and Rangers both hit the 1200 hate cap every time they cast a spell. Rangers get a marginally faster spell to cast, but the point is moot: both classes can keep agro sufficiently well. Once you have enough hate, you don't get bonus points for having +more. Each of Shadowknights, Paladins, Rangers, and Beastlords have their own pros and cons, but their ability to generate agro doesn't tip the scales in any group content (Shadowknights have the "creative" tool of being able to build hate on bellycasters from safety, useful for a handful of raid encounters). Hate on demand is the most powerful tool a tank can have for group content. Being able to reliably gain a mob's attention at will and quickly is what sets these 4 classes apart from pet tanks and Warriors, who you're often left praying for good luck and then not actively pressing your buttons so you don't die from pulling agro too quickly; charm pets are mostly immune from this issue because their throughput dwarfs what any player can provide, but an inopportune break will cause some scrambling, which many players find exhilarating and fun. Warriors are the worst of all possible worlds, particularly without raid gear. There's a reason their hate generation was fixed shortly after the TAKP era. Outside of their disc period, they tank no better than a knight. Of course their disciplines are powerful, but you have to be a special kind of crazy to favor a Warrior. Monks have the unenviable distinction of somehow being worse than Warriors. They tank worse than Wizards, but depending on your weapons, generate the same agro as Warriors. They can reliably dump their agro, but through the lens of tanking this isn't an asset. What you'll find is we have TAKP players making anything work. What's beautiful about early EverQuest is each class has pros and cons. Dedicate yourself to your character(s), or dabble in alts as you experiment with them all, and you'll certainly find ways to have fun for years to come.
Monks don’t tank worse than wizards. They have the best avoidance of any class. they have 230 Block, 230 Dodge and 225 Riposte. Compared to Beastlords 200 Block, 170 Dodge, 185 Riposte, you will see them completely avoid hits a noticeable amount more than beastlords. Their AC however is of course much lower so they will often be hit for higher end of the damage distribution more often.
As a former monk I can say you won't really notice the hits you avoid - but you will notice how hard you get hit.
IDK, current era the Warriors take considerably less damage than the knights we use to tank content even without disc. Of course there are multiple variables such as knights being able to avoid ripostes, I remember seeing knights attempt to tank AoW and Blob2 and they got one shot. The extra ~600 HP Warriors get is quite decent along with the extra armor AC they get. Don't forget Warriors have higher defensive skills than knights so they will avoid hits more often. BST best tank though, get to block like a monk which is twice as effective as parry and they get a pet to also tank when shit hits the fan.
