Don't you guys remember how much fun it was when everybody was doing flagging and progressing together? If I were new to this server and a guild offered to carry me, even play my toon for me to flag it, I'd be pretty turned off from it. We're here for the long haul because we have time/emotion invested into it, but having people skip all of PoP for you doesn't give much reason to keep playing. It took some of the guilds here a year or two to get to potime and they made friendships along the way and invested time into it that keeps them here, but flagging people in a week/month/whatever really kills any reason to keep playing, IMO. The exp is super easy already in PoP; the flagging is the one thing that people still have to overcome, ideally in a fun/challenging way with friends, not by having somebody skip for you. That barrier gives a reason to keep going and get better at playing the game and make connections with people. I think Blood Guard did this - they progressed through stuff together instead of getting carries from the veterans? Imagine how it looks for new people.. the vets here want to farm Quarm, and they just want to bolster their zerg roster, but those new people never get to play the actual hook part of the game, the exp grind and the flag grind, they are just supposed to show up every 2 weeks to farm Quarm for the TAKP lifers. I think it's terrible that you guys lend them shared characters too. Not being able to participate and watching others raid is exactly the thing that builds anticipation and makes people want to keep going. You all did it, pushed through Emp Ssra and farmed VT for 3 years, but you want new people to skip flags and go right to Quarm. Doesn't sound very fun or like a 'forever home' to me, if I were looking to join this community.
I'm not really sure what you're talking about here, respectfully. People who rush flagging drop quickly. That's not the kind of atmosphere that Destiny promotes. I'll take this opportunity to reiterate that anyone wishing to enjoy progression through Luclin and PoP, and to contribute meaningfully to their own personal and our guild's progression, will find a fun and rewarding home in Destiny. You're more than a number. Our biggest hurdle in retention has been challenge! When we come up against challenge such as hydrotha, rathe council or plane of time phases, we have people leave to guilds who have completed these challenges as those individuals wish to keep moving and enjoying themselves. Unfortunately this problem perpetuates itself. I'm all for starting PoP over from the ground up to move folks forward in a rewarding fashion.
While there is certainly appeal to the idea that everyone is progressing together through flags, short of an entire guild moving over those days are over for TAKP. NAG has to balance farming time, flagging new characters, knocking out our EP targets, and ensuring the schedule doesn't become packed overfull with raids on raids on raids. We have to exercise some discretion when it comes to how we spend our time to limit burnout. When we do run a backflag, we try very hard to ensure all new members attend or have their characters boxed, because the consequences of not doing so are a lengthy delay to EP and consequently time access. We want them into EP's so they can spend their dkp on high quality gear. Lending characters is for us, very important. Its not just the 'vets' taking advantage of new recruits. We want to include them in our only bonus dkp raids, and give them a chance to learn encounters on a character that's not going to get smooshed the second they zone in. Sometimes we really need those people, our numbers for quarm kills have been in the mid-high 30's even with that help. We want to set up our new players to enter EP's quickly, earn good dkp if they want to help us in potime, and begin improving their own characters swiftly so once they have time access those characters become time viable. Denying the opportunity to participate to new recruits would not just make our own experience worse, but I personally feel quite the opposite to you. Imagine joining a guild and being told 'you can't attend this raid', watching everyone else accrue dkp, meanwhile you sit on your hands, waiting for the flagging raids. I would feel excluded and disadvantaged. On the topic of server wide backflag raids, I think if they ever do happen they'll be quite rare due to the logistical and organizational hurdles. If you need flags, try to come along with a guild during their backflag cycle, and behave however they ask you to. All guilds will share flags into EP's whenever they have extra.
how can it be even remotely enjoyable for anyone to watch their entire guild have fun and raid while being unable to click some zone-in? "just keep going bro" keep going doing what exactly?
Somebody who is just starting doesn't care about Quarm loot or flags yet, they want to get their seb key first, they want to be a meatshield, or super enchanter mezzing 3 frogs at once or whatever nostalgic memories brought them back to EQ. If you skip them right to Quarm, it's robbing them of the fun phase and going right to the miserable part. At least, that's how I would feel if you guys rushed me through it like that, and I sure wouldn't want to play somebody else's character. Anyway, just my own feelings on it. I do like the idea of it being a community thing instead of a guild only thing though, and that's kind of what I'm getting at - you need to fill the raids with other like minded TAKP people from the other guilds who are already playing here, not new players getting rushed through.
I agree. For me, and I assume most, having a foundation of fun and investment in the game is more important than racing or the end. That's what I'd like to continue to foster. A cummunity that values fun, involvement and experience over finishing first.
Nobody is being kidnapped and frogmarched into PoTime. Nobody is getting kicked from their guild for not getting their flags or missing certain raids, at least not in NAG. Honestly, anyone who finds raiding to be miserable probably should just enjoy the leveling experience. I can't speak for other guilds, but we have an extremely open, equitable and fair system for raiding in NAG imo. If there are raids you can't make, its OK. No attendance or activity requirements. Lots of support and advice if you need it. If we really need your BiS warrior for PoTime, you'll get a discord msg asking if we can box it. We've had people wait to experience PoTime until they're flagged and that's fine. There are people who raid very rarely, or not at all. Everyone gets to play at their own pace. I understand what you're trying to express, but I think its conflicts with the reality of maintaining a raiding guild (or in our case, alliance). If we decided to recruit and flag casually while forbidding boxing chars, recruits would be resentful and leave. Over time, our raiding capability would degrade as players left due to RL or burnout. If we're unable to kill our PoTime targets, dedicated raiders will become dissatisfied and look for an alternative. Every raid guild needs to keep the plates spinning and try to strike the right balance. In the end TAKP will one day conclude as a project. Before that, the raid scene will slowly ebb away. But while we're here, we ought to have a little fun raiding while arguing about the ideal type of cheese blend and bread type for fondue (u gotta have some pumpernickel for sure!)
Yes, I remember flagging as a guild and progressing as a team. And it was as glorious as you could want it to be. It took us over a year to reach PoTime for the first time, and I enjoyed every minute of progression. Another factor is raid time availability. A majority part of a decision to join a raiding guild on this server is based on Time Zone. Even the 3-4 hour time difference between the East and West coast can be a deal breaker. Making it to an annual raid at a weird time for Mayong is different than attending raids during family time 3-4 times a week. So I don't know that what the guilds are currently doing (as Destiny describes above) is different than "Open server raids announced to the whole server." Those flagging targets have spawn timers measured in days and weeks, so it's best to coordinate those efforts, and that coordination happens in a publicly accessible spreadsheet. In other words, we're already doing the best form of "Open server flagging raids" that I can imagine. As for sharing toons, <Paragon> still does not have Quarm on farm status, and we clearly have room to progress towards that goal. By lending geared and flagged toons to new players, those players are not cut off from supporting our glorious progression. They get to be a part of helping the guild progress. (And they earn DKP they can then spend on their own toons later as their characters progress.) While your characterization of toon sharing might apply to some scenarios, it's awfully pessimistic, and from my perspective does not accurately describe the way it works for us. Of course we want players to have a robust experience that will keep them actively engaged for extended periods of time, and of course I agree that part of that is time invested into your own characters. I think that lending toons for Time raids is a way of offering new players access to the benefits of helping the guild progress with out taking away from the time invested into farming exp on their own toons.
As someone who is "taking their time", the issue is that... the server is so top-heavy that there aren't many other players to "take my time" with. Absent pulling in tons of new players or a progression type server, the reality is going to be that all of the mid-level stuff is a barren wasteland. I think this is what led to the suggestion that having a series of progression servers with expansion unlocks and a final transfer of characters back to the main TakP server would be great. It would mean a robust population of people at lower levels starting fresh for returning players to play with, rather than coming into a server where most people you encounter have multiple 65s and it's rare to encounter anyone below max who isn't PLing up a new alt. And for what it's worth, I've felt zero pressure to rush, level up, or play someone's geared shared account in Paragon, but it's nice to have the option. But I can also hang out on my level 32 ranger and have a GChat that actually has people in it.
For what it's worth, most guilds allow anyone to show up and grab spare flags. There's technically open server flag raids up to EPs all the time =P.
This is why I think a temporary spin-off server with a finite lifespan would be kinda cool. Devs create a new TLP server, a new cohort joins (mix of longtime TAKP people and new folks), the new cohort progresses together through the expansions, then the devs close the TLP server and merge its playerbase into TAKP. The spin-off server could even go through PoP so the cohort can do AAs and flags together. The cohort gets to play through the content at the appropriate gear level with a new mix of people, and when they finish, their toons end up shoulder to shoulder with the bulk of TAKP's population, ready to join a guild and raid the endgame after having experienced the prior content in the most fun way possible.
A similar idea would be a hardcore server with xfer allowed for 60+ toons back to the main server. Or transfer on death. It would be interesting to see how far groups or a raiding guild could go on a true hardcore only server.
I think the only way this can ever be recaptured is new content, which for TAKP doesn't exist. On Live, GoD came out and everyone had stuff to work and progress towards as a guild. People who joined in late PoP and got "carried" into Time were then the ones banging their heads against the wall in Uqua and Txevu. Then OoW came out, and the people who joined the guild late in GoD got to experience those raids in a progression atmosphere. That format lends itself to exactly what you're suggesting, but you simply can't do that without new content. Here, there is simply no way to ever recreate that experience of all the guilds working on everything and pushing through content again. There's no content left. If you're new here and want to earn and struggle for everything, you really need to bring a guild with you, unfortunately.
HEY. I don't know what you heard, but when Temerity decides to run its cheal rotation in a random order that changes every time we get to 111, or see how long it can last when Darchon is main tanking, it is ENTIRELY BY CHOICE.
Mac OS 10.14 Mojave wasn't released until 2018, so it did NOT come installed on any new 2010 Macs. Lion wasn't even released until 2011, so 2010 Macs would have shipped with Snow Leopard.
Mokli was saying EQA is appealing to them over Quarm because you can actually get camps on EQA, due to the low population.
Emmure on EQArchives is recruiting takp players on a divine crusade to complete stuff first and do it all over again
Probably should have been paying attention and chimed in on this thread sooner, from whats effectively a "new player" perspective. I am not new to TAKP. I may have played earlier then many, since I played in the classic era to kunark transition. I just... got bored with the very limited content and stopped playing. I recently realized that TAKP would probably be on PoP right now, so came back as I just wasent finding any fun in WoW anymore. That out of the way, I'm leveling/gearing up my main trio and main solo chars now, and looking ahead and at what criteria I want from a guild... back-flagging has kind of ended up on the top of my list. While I am personally not 100% sure I want to raid regularly and strictly, I do know I am going to want to progress. And... I kind of have to agree with solar's perspective. I have no interest in playing other people alts, consuming and burning out on content... that is not with my characters. I don't care about DKP savings. I wouldn't want to farm time until I can bring my own characters. To each their own, but... that's definitely not for me. IMHO, whats lacking and maybe the solution to the conveyed issue of not having enough people to do time is... something I sorely miss from my old EQ live server. PUG raids. On live, that is how I got my EP flagging done. And it seems odd to me that in my month back, all I have seen is one bad pug raid for a anniversary event boss. When I last played in 2015/2016, I did several PUG raids on TAKP. But from talking to people... it seems that largely PUG raiding is not a thing on TAKP anymore. That said... I am not 100% certain that would solve any issues, or even be viable on TAKP for back-flagging purposes. The server population is just too low. When I did PoP PUG raids on live... this was with a lot of under-geared and under-experienced people. Quite frequently we ran with completely full zergs to compensate. I can't see PUGs on TAKP doing more than like hedge maze and BoT towers with the numbers I would project such raids to get. But I don't have a full picture yet, so may be wrong. So that just leaves a server wide alliance of guilds to manage backflagging. I have only read the last 2 pages, and done some skimming with them. So it sounds like the guilds do that already... But if so... it needs to be MUCH more clear and out there for newer players to know about (I haven't seen one mention or broadcast about such a raid in alliance chat). And it should be refined into a well planned thing for the sake of the people running them. As in, turns one who runs it. Communication between guilds and open broadcast invites for backflagging is how we handled things on PEQ. It worked. Beyond that, for non-official AK/live solutions to help... Maybe... debuff days for some of the progression targets? Making them easier to kill, and thus less of a time sink for people who dont need them, to come help. Maybe some free flags, based on having other flags done? Something enough to encourage people to still do some of the flagging, but not punish them for missing a raid and its flag. IDK... like if you get the Aerin'Dar/HoH access flag or BoT access flag... you can hail a NPC and get the other. Got 2 of the 3 Zeks flags? You can get the other for free. I suggest these things, because I want to work towards my EP access. I don't really like the idea of free stuff. I enjoy taking my time and earning things. But at least these still require effort and a sense of earning, while also making it less painful for the vet's that would need to help with the process. Oh. And maybe just add the alt access solro flag. Actually... speaking of alt access flags. As I recall, they simply grant zone access. They do not count as the real flag. If thats correct... you can change that. Minor, but could help. In the case of solro, it would be absurd for that to count as basically everything except RZtW. So maybe just just count as something else for EP flagging.
Are you in one of the raiding guilds, Shibi? If so, most of them seem to do backflagging raids pretty regularly, since there's a rotation among them for targets. I would think PUG raids would mess with the rotation?
I thought I made that clear in my comment by saying "and looking ahead and at what criteria I want from a guild", but guess not. No, I am currently not in a guild. As such, I have been trying to figure out what guild I want to try and join. Normally... I do pug raids with people of different guilds and figure it out from that. Since that no longer exists on TAKP... I came up with back-flagging as a concern. If they do them regularly... they are not advertising them well, or just plain not opening them to non-guilded people. This is what I am saying. If there is a community effort to do back-flagging, it needs to be more public and open. Don't just assume everyone is in a guild. Don't just ask around your friends lists if anyone needs a flag. Don't just assume people will be contacting you looking for a flag. As far as the rotation goes... I have not looked at what is and isnt on the rotations, but maybe start taking some things off of the rotation? So they are more open and free to be killed by the community and get those flags. This is... normal for me. This is how I am used to it being done. It's how I got my flags on live. So it's odd for me to see and grasp how things are being handled right now. When the top guilds on my server, a rotation server, started farming EP's and time... the lower teir stuff got removed from the rotations. And PUG raiding swooped in to take them.
My hope is that some new guilds will form and do this progression stuff the fun way instead of the chore way but that requires quite a number of people to all be in the same boat. Perhaps some mix of old timers and new guys though. I would feel pretty cheated out of the game if all there was to do is rapidly catch up to the end phase of farming the last boss, but I can't really see like 50 new people showing up and forming new guilds that will progress through the normal way.. it could happen, but if free flags are available from following another guild then maybe people wouldn't be able to resist skipping ahead anyway. I think that all the people who were playing here for the initial flagging run had great fun doing it. As far as getting flags without a guild, that seems kind of pointless since the locked zones are for raiding with a guild, but I suppose you could look at potential community PUGs as a type of guild. I think that will happen too as the old guilds lose people and there aren't enough left to field a raid with just their guild. For a while there we did have Destiny, NAG and Imperium doing open backflag stuff but that was probably a year ago now.
Fire is a EXP zone. Solro should be too, but I don't see anyone ever advertising LFM for it. Earth was a decent exp and group zone too. Fire and Earth see rot's all the time that people could use. I'm not saying that I should remain guildless, or that I plan to. Just that being guildless is something that people are for their own reasons, and excluding them from back flagging is a failure. At least if there is a sense of a greater community effort to get people backflagged. And yea. On live my PUG community did end up as a sort of guild... before I went and co-founded a real guild of those PUG raiders. I don't think there will be a strong guildless pug community like that here though. It would very likely be mostly comprised of people in guilds needing the backflags, and their otherwise bored and/or eager to help guildies. With a few that would currently be like me, guildless and just looking to grab flags here and there while they are available or wanting something different to do beside grind and quest here and there. But yea. In general, sever health is an issue. TAKP seems to not be bringing in as many players as its losing. Quarm likely has something to do with that. But we are seeing SOME people hopping over from Quarm and P99. From my perspective, the freedom to 3 box and option to solo box helps. And yea. I stopped playing TAKP in kunark because I was bored with the lack of content. So with up to PoP unlocked... It's more appealing to me. Maybe others. But thats how it should be advertised. I know it would be a land mine issue here... but maybe its time to consider moving TAKP beyond "exactly as it was on AK". Offering whatever non-client based changes live had but AK was lacking. Not really sure what would be all that interesting enough to bring back lost players and keep around ones that would stop logging in. Revamped Hate or Droga/Nurga arent it. Maybe revamped VP... but that was more of a questing zone after the revamp. Nice quests that I do miss here... but quickly consumed. But man. I do wish my timing was better on coming back. I should have come back a year ago or more... I cant even return to PEQ. Besides the buggyness of not being able to log in my favorite characters at all... the disgusting raid boxing culture there is... bleh...
A lot of the back flagging (and PUG raids - Nukem, Darchon, Jaerim, and some others used to host them every so often) has slowed down now that every guild is in PoTime and because PoP zones are level unlocked. In the same way people used to advertise selling Justice Trial runs in Alliance, there's not as much of a desire or demand to do a pick-up MB raid when you can access the zone now without it. For guildless players the level unlock is a net win because you have more options to XP and group with others. I sympathize with guild/raid leaders trying to recruit and field more players in PoTime. A full back-flagging cycle is a lot... I was on the fence about joining a guild because my playtime can be infrequent and I have never raided in any MMO. About a year ago I was grouping a lot with <Blood Guard> members and some were helping me out with doing a Justice Trial, killing named giants in PoStorms to access BoThunder etc. They were gearing up to do a full cycle in two weeks or a month. It was a crunch and of the dozen or so new players/members who came along, I've only seen 3 online recently (two are a husband + wife couple, and they're the only ones still raiding I think). Most, if not all, of the raid leaders of BG don't play here any longer. For myself, I didn't enjoy raiding and it drew too much wife aggro so I took a break for a few months. I'm happier bopping around at my own pace. But for guilds this has got to be a disheartening experience and I'm sure they've experienced it multiple times each recruiting/back-flagging push. I'm glad to have EP access but it's not something I use often. It really is for guilds and raiders. I'd love to farm a FT3 belt from F1 in Fire, or the FT2 earrings from Earth, or the Fishlord Event in Water, but none of those I am capable of trio-ing and it's hard for me to find decent chunks of playtime. I also don't expect anyone to help me out with them. For some kiting classes Tables might be the holy grail, but I find it a boring camp and plenty of other PoP zones/camps offer great XP and loot.
... what? I'm failing to see either how it "isn't" based on my comment you quoted, or how that works as a joke in context... At best... maybe the part where I suggest "maybe going beyond exactly as it was on AK"? Since I know thats a big deal to people. I just threw that out there. I am not expecting it, nor expecting even other players to be for it. But when talking server population woes, such a thing is relevant as it can offer bored people something new. You quote me, but you don't really seem to be saying much that feels like a real response to my comment. Little I can really respond to. I am aware that "things did happen a year or more ago, but arent now". I suppose that supports my wishing I came back earlier? As far as having EP access, and not using it... everyone is different. When I got it on Live and PEQ... I used my access all the time. More for exp and group content. I never raided EP's on live, and barely did it enough to get time flagged on PEQ. I can say that... you mention something that I do find wrong with the TAKP community. Everyone is trio focused. If they can't trio something, it is simply not an option. 6 person groups are few. It's either someone trioing, or a trio inviting a 4th. The point of the 3 box limit used to be that it promoted people actually grouping still... unlike what PEQ became with 6 boxing... then 12 boxing... then 24 boxing... etc... Not sure what can be done about it, but it is sad. That used to be a huge draw for the server for me. So I have been finding dealing with how things are now, difficult. In that sense, maybe Tuluvien's meme would fit me. But... my other options of Quarm and PEQ are far worse! No freedom to box what I want when I want, and era locked content on one, and on the other a buggy mess mixed with people that are so anti-social that they would rather box a raid of generic characters boiled down to their class/role (and not really play and enjoy any one class) than put any amount of effort into relying on others. ... Anyway. Just to be clear with everyone. I'm not demanding anything for flagging, or complaining. I'm simply chiming in with my 2 cents from the perspective of someone who is virtually "new to the server" and looking ahead to at the state of raiding that would be relevant to me. Right now my characters arent even level 65. And I am taking my sweet time getting there as I want to enjoy the journey again. It's just that in a discussion about a topic that will effect me... I should share my voice.
Here's an idea for you. When you make it to 65, try organizing some pug raids and see how it goes. When NAG finished up our last backflagging round last month, we were having 140-150 on some raids. So there would most likely be some interest if you advertised your intentions. Cheers
