TAKP TLP voting polls: Boxing limits

Discussion in 'General Discussion' started by robregen, Aug 9, 2024.

?

How many Boxing you want for this server?

Poll closed Sep 6, 2024.
  1. 1

    31.3%
  2. 2

    33.3%
  3. 3 (current TAKP rule)

    6.1%
  4. 4

    6.1%
  5. unlimited

    23.2%
  1. robregen

    robregen Administrator Staff Member

    Messages:
    8,487
    vote are 1, 2, 3, 4, unlimited
     
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  2. surron

    surron People Like Me

    Messages:
    592
    imo i dont think putting unlimited as an option was a good idea. as much as i want unlimited, it will just make people bot.

    the common man just doesn't like to box, but we also dont want quarm numbers imo (because we wont be doing custom changes)... so i think 2 is the best option (because people just box on their phone hotspot on quarm/p99 anyways).


    2014 discussion https://www.takproject.net/forums/index.php?threads/limit-on-boxes.21/
     
    Willow likes this.
  3. Pithy

    Pithy I Feel Loved

    Messages:
    2,696
    @Devs, did we figure out if it's technically possible to set different box limits in different zones? For example, could the server allow two-boxing in most zones, but restrict raid zones (e.g., old world planes in Classic, VP in Kunark, ToV in Velious) to one box? That would allow more flexibility for grouping but keep the raid scene from getting too easy or overcrowded. It would also give this spinoff server a different flavor from other TLPs and emus.
     
  4. Kithani

    Kithani People Like Me

    Messages:
    84
    Out of curiosity how does the math work out for exp in a 4 man vs 6 man group?

    The third boxer will need to increase kill rate by like 25% to break even? That’s been one of the few frustrations I’ve had on TAKP where people don’t want to group up beyond 4 sometimes
     
  5. robregen

    robregen Administrator Staff Member

    Messages:
    8,487
    that's depends on the xp rate rules. TAKP rules is group bonus for 4-6
     
  6. kai4785

    kai4785 People Like Me

    Messages:
    327
    https://wiki.takp.info/index.php/Experience_Points#Group_Size_Modifiers
    4 in the group is "maximum bonus per kill". If you don't have outside help, the idea is that #5 and #6 increase the kill rate by more than the drop in the experience. If you have helpers sitting outside of the group (power leveling) so you can maximize the kill rate, 4 is min/max sweet spot.

    But those 3 percentage points between 4 and 5 players in the group don't seem very significant to me. Kinda like the Men's 100m final this year; gold and silver both finished with a 9.79 second time, but only 1 got the gold. So you tell 'em, "Meriadoc says 5 players isn't significantly, or even noticeably, different than 4" next time someone gives you guff about adding a 5th. It's the parenthetical expression that sells it.
     
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  7. Baler

    Baler Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    72
    Classic is small enough to be 1 box with any population.
    Could add 2 box later? It would cause a spike in characters if added later.
    Some players may not know how to box.
     
  8. solar

    solar Administrator Staff Member

    Messages:
    1,251
    Just a suggestion to consider here..
    If the limit is 'unlimited' then all of the options are available to everybody. It doesn't mean you have to try to play as many as possible, it just means nobody has to go around looking for people with hotspots and 'brothers' that are playing together. I know people know this, but they get hung up on wanting OTHER people to not box more than them. In all seriousness, if there is a limit, some number of people will want to break that limit, and that means some admin will have to go around playing bad cop and banning people, and that sucks for everybody involved. If the limit is not there, then people are free to start with 1 and add 2 or 3 boxing later without getting in trouble and risking getting banned.

    As far as grouping, you all know that is a time commitment and being able to box gives people flexibility to just solo on their lunch break or whatever. You can always drop boxes to make a group of 6 when there are people and time available for it. Please consider that even if you don't yourself want to box 4 for example, you may one day want the option to buff and port your duo or trio or whatever with a borrowed druid without having to hide in the shadows being sneaky and risking getting in trouble. The other emu servers, TAKP, Quarm and p99, all have boxing limits and having no limit on this TLP would make this server at least superficially different.

    So try to vote based on the long term, not on how many you want to start with. Adding boxes is like NewGame+ in EverQuest and it's not fun to enforce a limit, unless you're some kind of sadist I guess. If boxing is allowed, at least everybody is on the same level and there's no shady business with VPNs and made up family members.
     
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  9. surron

    surron People Like Me

    Messages:
    592
    in theory i agree solar, but unfortunately with unlimited you could easily have 1 person using 6 boxes at solb efreeti and 6 boxes at lguk lord.

    On the other hand, i mean what you state is exactly how AK worked prior to shutdown. There was some people 30 boxing, but yet there were single boxers (me) leveling up in HK with others, and pug groups in BoT/PoV with 1-3 boxers. (I believe this unique scenario only worked because AK was in PoP. And everyone's goal prior to 65 was to just do whatever it takes to get 65 - there wasn't any artificial roadblocks like there will be with expansion unlocks. However, i think this would have been a lot different if Malignant made it into EPs and there was 3-4 real life people competing with Tems and Destiny's pofire/water minis.)

    if anything Baler's idea is good, 1 box with potential updates later (which is what takp should have now imo lol)... because anything more than 1 box in classic kinda sucks for everyone else... because you'll easily have people doing enc+cler camping anything they want
     
    Last edited: Aug 9, 2024
  10. Foxboxx

    Foxboxx People Like Me

    Messages:
    239
    I would personally never really play on a server (old AK excluded, since that was a unique situation =P) with unlimited boxing.

    I know such a server is mostly just people trying to test the limits of their own personal skill in what they can solo, or duo with another friend who is also boxing an entire CH chain. Since that's not a way I enjoy playing, it would be unlikely I would find any reason to play there. It's a server with a completely different purpose than one with a boxing limit, and it's understandable many would just simply have no interest in playing there, regardless of if they care about how others are having fun or not. It's simply not a server that leans toward how they themselves have fun.
     
    Last edited: Aug 9, 2024
    yellowbomp likes this.
  11. solar

    solar Administrator Staff Member

    Messages:
    1,251
    There are no boxing limits on live EverQuest and everybody played that before playing emus. I think it's a bit extreme to go right to 12 boxing efreeti/guk or entire CH chains and say you can't play because the sky is falling. More realistically, you get the option to buff/port/rez your crew, or to borrow an extra toon to camp a quest drop by yourself.
     
  12. pivoo

    pivoo People Like Me

    Messages:
    395
    Good point!
    If you guys go no limit, I will try to play the whole group. I do have a feeling, due to this players endless clumsiness, death rate in my case will go up, way way up... :D

    Suggestion: can we get a ranking, which character will have most deaths? It is about time, I top out somewhere also... :p
     
  13. Darchon

    Darchon I Feel Loved

    Messages:
    3,687
    Personally I favor unlimited/6-box just because its the only thing I really haven't dabbled with before. TAKP was 3-box, AK I usually limited to 3 or 4 boxes but more than that was extreme lag on the PC client at the time, Live with 1-4 boxes and P99/PQ with 1-box. I've not really gotten into doing a full group

    I can't see myself every loading more than 6 characters other than for a convenience like if my 6 characters don't involve a porter or certain type of buffer, I'd log in a 7th to do that quick task and log off after.

    Also currently, we are limited to 10 game accounts here. So theoretically I guess your box limit would be 10 unless you are borrowing other people's characters. Unless we are getting bonus game accounts to celebrate the anniversary *crosses fingers*

    Pithy's idea of zone-limited boxing could be really great though. I have no idea its feasiblity but it could even be set temporarily to certain zones to encourage single boxing or two boxing.

    IE on launch you could throw Crushbone, Unrest, Mistmoore, Befallen and Sol A in the 1-box ruleset. Meanwhile stuff like Kerra's Isle and Najena can be 6-box or unlimited. That way the people who are inclined to say box Efreeti and Lord at the same time aren't able to, but they can have fun 6-boxing in Kedge or some starter city guard camp. Probably wishful thinking though, seems involved and potentially a lot of work to setup if it is even possible.
     
    Last edited: Aug 9, 2024
    pivoo likes this.
  14. Pithy

    Pithy I Feel Loved

    Messages:
    2,696
    Two random thoughts:
    1. Torven mentioned zone-specific box limits at some point, so he might have looked into the technical feasibility. Could be worth asking him.
    2. Not super relevant, but as Darch alluded to, both AK and Live effectively did have box limits in era due to hardware limitations. Sure, a guy playing after hours from his graphic design studio on four PowerMac towers could've 16-boxed on AK, but until the PC client, the best single Mac could only handle 3-4 instances comfortably, or 5-6 for short periods with all settings turned off. (I know because I bought a maxed-out PowerMac specifically for AK.) Beyond that you needed multiple computers, which most boxers dislike.
    With today's hardware and clients, folks could box whole raids on one computer. With no box limit, the only thing that really limits what one person can kill is how good they are at automating gameplay. One script to automate a 10-cleric CH rot, another to automate nukes from 10 wizards, and so on.

    I agree with solar that any box limit is going to bring enforcement headaches -- some shitbirds will always try to use VPNs, phone hotspots, IP exemptions for fake familiy members, etc. -- but so will a lack of box limits. Unless you make automation legal, you'll just have to police that instead.
     
    Last edited: Aug 9, 2024
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  15. cmdrk

    cmdrk Member

    Messages:
    23
    Yeah, those folks won't ever be fully blocked no matter how good the bot detection is. I think having a box limit is at least a speed bump to make it a little less enticing. I would assume that it's easier to spot the people flagrantly breaking the rules if there's a box limit in play.
     
    Break likes this.
  16. Break

    Break People Like Me

    Messages:
    666
    There was also a monetary limitation to boxing on AK. I limited myself to my two boxes due to budgetary constraints. That was removed at some point, but it did cost money to play for a large portion of that server's history.
     
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  17. Foxboxx

    Foxboxx People Like Me

    Messages:
    239
    It's not a sky is falling situation or anything of the such for me. I'm sure I could get by playing there, but I would have no interest in engaging with the main feature of the server, so what would be the point? I'm not negatively judging those who enjoy running around with a crew of 6 mages or trying to handle complex raids with as few actual players as possible, because I do see why that can be fun. But why would someone who doesn't wish to partake in that engage with the server? What extra joy do they get from playing their single box character as they watch groups of mages half-afk farm camps?

    I just believe anyone not wishing to really use the unlimited boxing nature would be left always feeling like the seventh wheel. Maybe they'll get an invite to a single person's full group, but they'd also know that person is losing out on exp for one of their characters, and probably would prefer not losing item drop rolls to you. Smaller boxing limits can encourage grouping, but I think unlimited just erodes the cooperative nature of the game.
     
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  18. sterling

    sterling Member

    Messages:
    18
    Around what expansion did boxing become very widespread in EQ? That's when I would begin to consider allowing it. But my preference is just 1-box as long as server population is healthy enough to sustain it.
     
  19. Elroz

    Elroz I Feel Loved Staff Member

    Messages:
    2,350
    If I had to point to an exact time when boxing really took off, I think it was omens of war with WoW coming out. I think people had to start being more creative to fill up raids or their guilds would crumble.

    I knew of a guy who boxed during Velious in my guild, and he was one of very few who boxed in that era.
     
    Last edited: Aug 9, 2024
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  20. solar

    solar Administrator Staff Member

    Messages:
    1,251
    Which one of you is going to automate 40 toons? Most people here aren't into that, and those who are into that aren't going to want to play with the 1-2 boxers anyway. I think it's a bit premature to worry about that. I'm just suggesting that we relax on the box limit stuff because it's a soft rule that's hard to enforce and adds a really negative element to the server, having to ban people for that.
     
  21. Elroz

    Elroz I Feel Loved Staff Member

    Messages:
    2,350
    Nukem, and it'll be 40 wizards
     
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  22. surron

    surron People Like Me

    Messages:
    592
    TAKP = unlimited boxing... TAKTLP = single with anytime 1-way transfer to TAKP booom problem solved
     
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  23. pivoo

    pivoo People Like Me

    Messages:
    395
    Great idea :)
     
  24. forgone

    forgone Member

    Messages:
    40
    1 Box - Classic
    2 Box - Kunark
    3 Box - Velious
    4 Box - Luclin
    6 Box - PoP
     
  25. Braven

    Braven People Like Me

    Messages:
    112
    What is the point of a 1box server? If that's your preference there are already good options.
     
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  26. forgone

    forgone Member

    Messages:
    40
    This was mentioned in another thread. A single box server, in particular during classic, would draw in the most real life players into the TAKP ecosystem. Having both a one box server and also the OG 3 box TAKP server provides ample opportunities for the highest number of players to enjoy classic in the way they prefer. It creates a path for one box players and 3 box players to have the same environment exposing each playstyle to the other and decreasing tribalism.

    There aren't any servers that are currently in classic. Ultimately boxing will limit server population. There may be a preference for a smaller community server vs a high population server. Ultimately the devs will decide what they want to run.
     
    Last edited: Aug 10, 2024
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  27. sterling

    sterling Member

    Messages:
    18
    That seems right.

    For me what makes EQ a good MMO in 2024 is the single-box, social era of the game. I think that experience still holds up. But when EQ crosses over into the modern MMO era of player independence and convenience then it just doesn't compare with the competition.
     
  28. solar

    solar Administrator Staff Member

    Messages:
    1,251
    We'd all do well to be a bit more tolerant of other people's play styles especially if social play (group/raid) is the goal. There are less than 100 people who voted on this thing so far, hopefully more will participate, but it's not like there's a sea of people interested and the pool of interested players will get even smaller if some of them are excluded by this voting.

    As far as boxing in EverQuest, for better or worse, it's always been a thing. Some of us were young and didn't have the motivation or means to buy 6 computers/accounts/phone lines back in '99 but some people did and I'm sure everybody remembers a few of them. It's the natural way to increase your power and status, and in Luclin they intentionally added a need for a second account if you wanted to have a trader in the bazaar (it was mentioned by one of the developers, Hobart I think, in one of those alovingrobot interviews on twitch). Limiting boxing was never a part of real EQ, it forces some people out, but leaving it open allows more people to enjoy the same server, and for the single boxers to upgrade to 2/3/4 later when they max out their first.

    So I guess I'm just trying to say is that unlimited includes single boxing and 2/3/4 boxing, but it doesn't work like that in the other direction.
     
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  29. forgone

    forgone Member

    Messages:
    40
    I see where you are coming from. Data from the recent deployment of project quarm would suggest that newer players will typically consider high population servers first and single box servers tend to dominate population stats. It appears popularity has a feedback loop as others have mentioned. Boxing in general is a faster paced, higher APM style gameplay that some players 'graduate' into while the vast majority prefer to play one character and/or a trader. Unlimited boxing servers in theory services both single boxers and multboxers, but history has shown that single boxers typically look elsewhere for their single box experience if there will be many boxers around on a given server.
     
    Last edited: Aug 10, 2024
    sterling likes this.
  30. solar

    solar Administrator Staff Member

    Messages:
    1,251
    Yea I get it, if you can bring together a group of like-minded people that's better than having to be in the company of those you don't get along with. I'm just saying that this is one issue and there are a million other things to disagree on even if you all want the same number of boxes. We're going be very fragmented if we make every issue a make-or-break situation and I'm just throwing out there that maybe we can put up with a few people mega boxing while the rest of us single or dual box. It is after all how every live server is. In case anybody cares, I would prefer to play 1 or 2 and I would like to play with other people who play the same number, but I wouldn't be against joining a 6 boxer if they make room for me in their group.