Sad Mage Burnouts

Discussion in 'General Discussion' started by Nemce, Apr 15, 2019.

  1. Nemce

    Nemce Member

    Messages:
    15
    Hey everyone,

    So i realized today something very sad about the interaction between the Magician AA Frenzied Burnout and the spell Ancient:Burnout Blaze.

    The spell Ancient:Burnout Blaze gives the following benefits:

    2 : Effect type : Increase AC by 75
    3 : Effect type : Increase STR by 80
    4 : Effect type : Increase Attack Speed by 80%
    5 : Effect type : Increase ATK by 40

    As you can see, the Ancient Burnout (hereafter referred to as Ancient) provides the pet with 80% haste. But it also provides the pet with 75 AC. As many enchanters and melees know, haste spells that provide AC tend to have some stacking issues.

    Let's look at the AA Frenzied Burnout:

    1 : Effect type : Increase ATK by 200
    2 : Effect type : Increase AC by 300
    4 : Effect type : Increase Haste v3 by 15%
    5 : Effect type : Increase STR by 20

    The haste provided by the AA Frenzied Burnout (here after referred to as AA) is v3 "overhaste" by 15%. That means it will provide haste beyond the haste cap by 15%... however, it ALSO provides AC. When both the AA and Ancient are applied to the pet the AA will trump it due to the superior AC bonus... but it will ultimately reduce the haste your pet is receiving by 65%.

    Kinda crazy right?

    "Well surely there must be some kind of haste that makes this AA not totally useless"

    ...well not really.

    Speed of the Brood provides 66% haste so IF the AA stacked with this haste it would provide 1% more haste than the Ancient...but it also provides 40 AC which means it won't stack either.

    Visions of Grandeur does not give AC so it CAN stack with BOTH Ancient and AA... but it only provides 58% haste so AA+VoG = >80% haste and therefore not worth using.


    "So what Nemce?" Well my reason for posting is to see if this is functioning as the Devs intended. Should the AA be completely incompatible with the Ancient Burnout spell? Should there be a database exemption of some kind for the AA?

    And if the answer to that is "yes, working as intended", then my post is to warn other Mages to save your AAs if you think getting the Ancient Burnout is in your future.
     
    Last edited: Apr 15, 2019
  2. showstring

    showstring I Feel Loved

    Messages:
    1,271
    Shissar (ac slot6) actually does stack with Ancient Burnout (ac slot2), but Shissar doesn't stack with normal Burnout spells, so gluck getting your enchs to pick out which pets to give shissar to versus VoG for the 6 ticks of Frenzied Burnout madness

    this would be fixed if Ancient Burnout was AC on slot6 like the rest of the burnout spells, which it is on eqlive

    but.... wooomp woomp woomp, this wasn't fixed until 2007
    http://lucy.allakhazam.com/spellhistory.html?id=2119&source=Live
    2007-11-20 20:25 Removed Slot 2: Increase AC by 22
    2007-11-20 20:25 Added Slot 6: Increase AC by 22
     
  3. Haynar

    Haynar Administrator Staff Member

    Messages:
    2,813
    The real question. Is should they stack? Just because AK lucy shows conflicts. Does not mean they werent made to stack. There were exceptions. Haste v3 has has always been flexible.

    Some logs would be useful. Showing AA usage while ancient is up.
     
    Elrontaur likes this.
  4. Nemce

    Nemce Member

    Messages:
    15
    Should they? That sounds like an opinion. If you ask me, I think the very purpose of the spell is to provide a psudo melee disc for the pet. Melee discs don't get blocked by buffs. Ancient Burnout later gets changed into a compatible spell, so it shows the original developer's intent.

    But I assume the one who needs to answer the question of "should they stack" is for another staff to answer.
     
  5. Haynar

    Haynar Administrator Staff Member

    Messages:
    2,813
    My assumption. Is any haste v3 should stack with haste v2. Regardless of slots. But short of having a mage on live to test with. I don’t know how to confirm how it should work.

    And trying for ancient burnout on live does not appeal to me.
     
  6. lurari

    lurari People Like Me

    Messages:
    544
    The problem @Haynar is the AC doesn't stack. This results in the AA burnout acting as a DPS downgrade instead of as an ability with short burn DPS on a long timer.

    They "shouldn't" stack, in that the way the spells were originally coded, they conflict.

    The "should" stack, in the way that a competent designer would've intended it.

    It's kind of like monk AC. Not accurate for design intent, but AKurate for our timeline. I suppose the question for our benevolent admins here is whether this is more like monk AC or more like Mental Corruption.
     
    Last edited: Apr 16, 2019 at 8:34 AM
  7. Ravenwing

    Ravenwing I Feel Loved

    Messages:
    2,376
    I really doubt these stacked on Al'Kabor; the conflict was likely the reason for the 2007 slot change that Rimidal points out.

    Relevant logs may be impossible to come by since Ancient: Burnout Blaze has a level 62 PoP upgrade (Burnout V) that will stack with Frenzied Burnout just fine, but here's a patch message from July of 2003:

    http://www.tski.co.jp/baldio/patch/20030710.html
    Looks like they realized they goofed up the stacking but only bothered to fix it for Burnout V, not the old Luclin spell. (Note that if V3 haste stacked regardless of other conflicts, the strength bonus wouldn't have had to move slots, so the AC conflict is almost certainly going to prevent stacking.)

    It does seem pretty clear, on the other hand, that this was a design oversight at the time.
     
  8. showstring

    showstring I Feel Loved

    Messages:
    1,271
    July 2003 patch change simply refers to this:

    http://lucy.allakhazam.com/spellhistory.html?id=2754&source=Live
    2003-07-10 11:12 Changed Slot 4 from "Increase Attack Speed by 99%" to "Increase Haste v3 by 15%"

    it used to be that Frenzied Burnout AA that would over-write existing burnout with a 99% haste, so it got changed to v3 overhaste +15%
    presumably because people found it annoying that they'd have to recast burnout after the AA faded

    the ancient stacking issue was not noticed because by the time the AA was changed, PoP was out and Burnout V was used, out and nobody cast the ancient anymore.

    the original dev who made ancient burnout didn't copy paste correctly from previous burnout spells, and made the ac slot2 instead of slot6

    this mistake probably only got noticed when the first progression server came out in 2007 and people were locked in Luclin again for the first time post the July 2003 AA change



    edit: do we have a newer spell dat version of this AA on our server?
    should we instead have the old 99% haste version that over-writes all previous hastes
     
    Last edited: Apr 16, 2019 at 9:12 AM
  9. Ravenwing

    Ravenwing I Feel Loved

    Messages:
    2,376
    They also moved around the slots on both the STR component of Frenzied Burnout and the AC component of Burnout V (but not Ancient: Burnout Blaze) to resolve the stacking issue.

    Yes, all Al'Kabor spell data was from early August (or late July?) of 2003, not October of 2002 like most of the rest of our mechanics.
     
  10. Nemce

    Nemce Member

    Messages:
    15
    Would character fight logs be the only evidence that would suffice for a change? It seems that the change logs presented here build a compelling narrative depicting the original developer's mistake, realization of that mistake and the efforts they took to fix it. The timeline evident in these change logs does show that we are currently progression locked between the initial incident and the resolution. I suppose that there are two viable solutions based on the change logs presented:

    1. Change the spell data from AC slot 2 to slot 6
    2. Change the spell haste from v3 15% to a normal haste at 99%

    Either would make the current AA Frenzied Burnout into something that works with Ancient: Burnout
     
  11. Faults

    Faults I Feel Loved

    Messages:
    1,642
    Every class wants something. Join ranger archery and monk ac in the "sorry charlie" category.
     
    lurari and Slayzz like this.
  12. Haynar

    Haynar Administrator Staff Member

    Messages:
    2,813
    When you get burnout V in pop. It will stack. Thats my understanding.

    The current issue. If using ancient burnout, the AA is broke.

    Not quite a monk or archery issue. Its a broken AA issue.

    The log question. If someone from AK logs is using ancient burnout. And cast the AA. Did the haste fade? Is it a real stacking issue the server recognized and dropped pet haste? Or did the AA actually work, with all mage pet haste vesions?
     
  13. Faults

    Faults I Feel Loved

    Messages:
    1,642
    Logs of a spell nobody cast because there's a better stacking version? Sorry charlie. You can check my logs submitted for krumple - he was my bromage and I used him frequently but my recollection is all burnout V or the saryrn clickie with burnout V.
     
  14. Bum

    Bum I Feel Loved

    Messages:
    2,595
    Most sad mage burnouts are now parked in VT
     
    Morbo and Faults like this.
  15. Nemce

    Nemce Member

    Messages:
    15
    pfft! Not I! Mage power!
     
  16. showstring

    showstring I Feel Loved

    Messages:
    1,271
    yeah Nemce, join the queue

    be glad your ability is only in-era broken
    rather than out-of-era nerfed like some :)
     
    lurari, Slayzz and Faults like this.
  17. Mokli

    Mokli People Like Me

    Messages:
    1,090
    Or retuned to be more realistic. *cough shrink wand allowed in all zones 4 months after AK*
     
  18. Nemce

    Nemce Member

    Messages:
    15
    I'm not an edumacated AKfolk like soma'y'all. I just be casting muh burnouts and us'n muh AAs and I noticed these things arn'ta workin' and I'z got the feelin' it was supposed tuh be workin'. But whatta I know?

    If there is some logic that would indicate that these things are supposed to be broken then I'm not gonna reroll or flee the server...just is a bit silly.
     
  19. Tuluvien

    Tuluvien People Like Me

    Messages:
    659
    Not a matter of supposed to be broken, just were. As was much at the time.
     
  20. Haynar

    Haynar Administrator Staff Member

    Messages:
    2,813
    Fixed 4 mos later. I see no reason not to fix (monks fall in this. Rangers don’t?).

    Fixed 10 years later? I can see an Akurate argument. Quite a bit out of era.

    But not my decision.
     
    showstring likes this.
  21. Darchon

    Darchon I Feel Loved

    Messages:
    2,076
    Obvious resolution to this is PoP release.

    What can I do to achieve this goal???
     
    Draeko, Dane, lurari and 1 other person like this.
  22. Haynar

    Haynar Administrator Staff Member

    Messages:
    2,813
    That is a valid point. It is AKurate. And it resolves itself.
     
    lurari likes this.
  23. Lenas

    Lenas I Feel Loved Staff Member

    Messages:
    2,666
    Learn C.
     
  24. Haynar

    Haynar Administrator Staff Member

    Messages:
    2,813
    Coding is not holding up PoP release.
     
    Thunderace likes this.
  25. Thunderace

    Thunderace Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    292
    Out of curiosity - what is holding up PoP? @Haynar
     
  26. Haynar

    Haynar Administrator Staff Member

    Messages:
    2,813
    Content mostly.

    Development is gonna start picking up again. I know Torven has been parsing.

    Plenty of work to do.
     
    Thunderace likes this.
  27. robregen

    robregen Administrator Staff Member

    Messages:
    6,666
    I'll be starting up again soon. I think a lot of us need a break from contents before we get totally burnt out.
     
    Walex, Neealana, Cadsuane and 2 others like this.
  28. Ripwind

    Ripwind Active Member

    Messages:
    109
    Is there something that can be more easily crowd-sourced with the people here? Maybe a "Want to chip in? Here's how to help." thing. Not necessarily just helping test, but digging in and helping to make changes.
     
  29. Mokli

    Mokli People Like Me

    Messages:
    1,090
    You guys take the well deserved break until you're good and ready. ;) We appreciate all you do.
     
    Slayzz and Thunderace like this.
  30. Dane

    Dane People Like Me

    Messages:
    272
    Burnout is fine. You just can't have a Frenzied Burnout at the same time.
     
    Last edited: Apr 17, 2019 at 10:56 PM
    Ransom, Bum and showstring like this.