Monk Mitigation Nerf

Honestly, incap/listless will keep aggro 110%

 

I love my Bst/Clr/Enc combo. Once I get Bst crack, I'll consider sliding my Mag into that Enc slot for sure.

 

Back in PoP I used 3 DoTs for DPS, if the fight would be long enough (Scourge!). Crazy efficient damage both for time spent casting and damage per mana.

I was max FT for a reason! #BardRing

 

Yep Ripwing that is the same combo Bum likes to use - bst/mage/cleric - powerhouse for sure.

 

on my box setup I will say I use FoL if I am afraid of over nuking. But typically 50 slow an drowsy slows for agro do the trick. Not as good as flame lick however.

 

Slow, incapacitate, and flame lick should all be 1,200 hate on mobs of importance, as all debuffs are.

 

/yawn, I was max hp regen for a reason.

 

Think it might have something to do with cast time and decade possibly?

 

Slow, the shm line anyway, is 1600 threat regardless of the level of the slow or if the mob resists/already has a higher slow. Incap is 1220, and Flame Lick is 1200. It's also all based on the mobs total hp on how much threat actually produced, unless it's a DD, then the threat is = to the amount of base damage done regardless of crit,resist,partial,etc. Prox agro value is also based off of the mobs hp and caps at 2250 I believe.

And archery damage is currently treated as DD damage in terms of threat, so rip rangers in luclin unless that's fixed.

 

Where did these numbers come from?

 

Many different days of Dev testing on a good number of different mobs. #hatelist command.

 

That's very useful. I was just wondering a couple nights ago about some of those values, and if I'd have to check them myself. If you happen to have a spreadsheet of everything it would be really nice.

For example, was Cripple the same as Incapacitate? Where did Tash* and Malo/sini land (they seem super low)?
What about the Cessation of Corr (DoT/ac/str debuff) line?

 

I cannot confirm the numbers, but flame lick is insane aggro, 3 or 4 casts and you will not peel any mob from a druid or ranger, as it should be. I remember on AK, I used flamelick for aggro kiting groups and necroes, mages and wizards could cast whatever they wanted without the druid losing aggro in HOH, kiting around.

 

I never made a spreadsheet as who knows if these values will ever be changed. Cripple is 1230. Anything with an AC debuff is going to have mad threat. Malo/Sini line is 40 threat. Cessation of Corr line is 1600 base. STR debuffs aren't super agro intense. ATK debuffs aren't super hate (Shadowknights atk debuff line is like 40 threat or something for example, maybe 50,). The highest level Tash spell is 800 threat (Same as the unresistable SK threat spell in luclin). Lower level tashes are lower threat. All snares are also 1200.

 

Yes, I suspect that it is because of the AC debuff component. I'm kindof wondering of all debuffs of the same type (slow, P/D counters, ac, stat, etc..) have the same agro, regardless of the *amount* that is reduced. Also, if the agro on multiple-effect spells is simply additive by the effects -- I'd guess so?

 

That's interesting and kind of what I expected. AC alone seems to be the highest agro of anything.

I was guessing that Tash may be almost no from the MR debuf, and all of the agro coming from the application of however many poison counters. But that would not be consistent with all shaman slows having the same agro, becasue the counters increase with level....

 

Maybe disease and poison counters are different threat? All shm slows add disease counters.

 

That's right, I had always heard that the real aggro comes from the slight AC debuff in FL, and that all debuffs had way more aggro impact than HP +/-, and that of all debuffs AC had the most impact, which is kind of silly since that's hardly the worst debuff from a mob's perspective.

 

enc slows are disease counters too

doesn't sound right that you parsed all slows are same agro, i'm 99% sure that more counters = more agro
try casting enc slow languid pace - 30% with 6 disease counters, you'll get very little agro

I use a lower level enc slow initially on purpose for lower agro, because if I cast Forlorn Deeds at the start I'm almost always gonna get owned

I always go for tepid deeds (50%, 9 disease counters) slow at first , then go for forlorn deeds (70%, 16 diease counters) slow if required for tougher mobs, that way when I get agro from forlorn deeds at least the mob is slowed

it does seem like forlorn is about twice as much agro as tepid deeds

 

Can't say if it's how it's supposed to be, but casting a lower level slow is doing nothing for you in terms of lower threat.. They are all 1600 for an enchanter, I just tested it.

 

If by +/- HP you mean like Direct Damage spells, then ALL debuffs aren't higher than DDs. Wizzy's Sunstrike for example is 1300ish damage, so 1300ish threat. Ice spear is 1200, so 1200 threat which is the same as snare,flame lick, SK AC debuff line. The SK group debuff spells are disease, but don't add any disease counters themselves.

I wanna say Tears of Prexus is like 600 threat each wave, which would put it at like 1800 threat per cast if it lands/resists all three. I don't know if when it starts 100% resisting at 14% mob health if it lowers the threat to 1 like it does for belly caster mobs when ur outta range.

At least on TAKP currently

 

thanks for testing
sorry I don't mean to argue, but something either ain't right with the dev server, or with the test setup

It feels to me all your numbers are too high

are you maybe combining initial agro + agro of the item you're testing, and forgetting to separate the two? it feels like all your numbers are at least 400-800 too high, if not more

and perhaps the reason why all your slow spells are the same is because there's a max agro cap of 1600 or something like that?

maybe also cause the test dummy might have infinite hps, and the hate values are based on mob hps?



here's a reference that I commonly use:
http://everquest.allakhazam.com/wiki/eq:Items_Aggro_Procs

and also here: https://www.takproject.net/forums/index.php?threads/aggro-question.8868/
slow should be ~400 hate


Also always good to refer to Torven's post here, since he probably coded the values
http://www.eqemulator.org/forums/showthread.php?t=39819


torven says
Standard spell hate per cast = maxHP / 15 capped at 1200 with a minimum of 25.

slow is typically viewed at 400 hate, so that might match your 1600 hate numbers you are seeing, guessing the test dummy on dev server is reaching the max hp cap

 

Everything on Dev is pretty much identical to our live servers. You can log onto Dev and use the #hatelist command in about 10 mins tops. #zone 77 is the arena with the combat dummy. Initial agro is only ever 20 threat from what i've discovered. It's easy to wipe threat with a DA idol and start over with 1 threat, which even bypasses the initial threat you would gain also.

All threat spells besides DD spells scale with the mobs HP on how much threat they produce. So slow on a low hp mob will not be as much threat as a nuke for half their HP. I wanna say 32k hp is the cap, but It could deff be lower.

Again, all this is TAKP, and I have no idea if it's wrong or accurate. These are just the current hard numbers that you can test for yourself.

 

I said further up that a mobs hp absolutely has a factor on the threat, but i'm not testing for leveling mobs I'm testing for higher level/hp mobs which is when people really need to understand threat mechanics. The threat value for spells is capped ~32k, so it doesn't matter if the dummy has infinite there.


Honestly tho, like I said, accurate or not it doesn't take much to log into Dev and play around with it. Maybe a fix will come of it if these numbers don't add up.

 

also this thread has derailed from monk softcap discussion to threat values. Sorry about that.

 

good info regardless

this bit I'm struggling to agree with, I guess I need to do some testing of my own
"Lower rank non-damaging detrimental spells do the same amount of hate as higher rank versions."

or just accept that I only benefit from quicker cast time + less mana on my lower-level slows instead of lower agro...
even tho leveling up, in group situations and at raids, it feels like tepid deeds is noticeably less agro than forlorn deeds.... must be missing some calculation or variable somewhere

 

The monk community welcomes these observations

 

Torven pretty much spells all of this out in his EQEmu post: http://www.eqemulator.org/forums/showthread.php?t=39819

Are TAKP numbers not matching this?

 

They are, Lenny. Torven's research posts are the TAKP bibles.

It's a bit lower, yeah: 18k. A non-damage detrimental effect cast on anything with 18k+ hitpoints is gonna generate 1200 hate. Disease/poison counters add a bit more, which is why slows are all 1600 (1200 from non-damage detrimental, 400 from disease counters).

 

Had no idea this post existed, just knew about the atk/ac one. Get to add a new bookmark today.