Loot Policy, what's fair?

Discussion in 'General Discussion' started by Oiwon, Jun 24, 2016.

  1. Tuluvien

    Tuluvien I Feel Loved

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    A good guild fosters an atmosphere where people will raid even if there is no personal gain. My time in Destiny has seen many people putting in a lot of time and effort to help the guild as a whole and it's members.

    If you're hanging out with people who only raid to benefit themselves then it's not really a raiding guild is it? Just a lot of people who use each other.
     
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  2. Lenas

    Lenas I Feel Loved

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    Should swing both ways Tulu. Maybe if it's your first raid in an end game zone, don't roll on a the coveted last-boss items even if you are a main, ya know? Some people are on kill #20 and it isn't fair to them even if they will eventually get it regardless. The part timer will probably get it eventually too, or they wont, and it'll be replaced by something even better/easier to get in the next expansion.
     
    Last edited: Jul 14, 2016
  3. Ravenwing

    Ravenwing I Feel Loved

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    Naturally. No individual is perfectly selfish or perfectly altruistic, and obviously one's guildmates are paragons of virtue who are much better at putting the interests of the group above personal greed than the selfish jerks in that other guild. That's why you're guilded with them in the first place.

    But from the design end of things, loot systems are not about personal virtue. They're about the big picture. And the big picture is all about asking what kind of system encourages behavior that benefits the guild as opposed to behavior that doesn't.

    Well, if a virtue of the random system is that even the most casual raider always has a shot, it's counterproductive to shame that raider for not passing!

    Besides, when twelve people go in on an item, it's not really an option to pass to the guy or gal you think deserves it most.

    Even under a loot council system, like the one we used in Temerity, this kind of negotiation can get very sticky. "I pass to Darchon, who has wanted this item since he was a fetus and deserves it more than anyone else who has played Everquest ever! But definitely not to Pithy, who already has a big fancy hat and is also the cancer killing Temerity." Leaves you in a bit of a fix when the tell is coming from your first choice winner trying to pass to your fourth choice but not your second or third choices.
     
    Last edited: Jul 14, 2016
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  4. Lenas

    Lenas I Feel Loved

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    There are plenty of drops to get in a raid outside of the 1-2 coveted items I'm talking about that any alt / lower level / part timer would appreciate.

    It's about removing yourself on that one or two items, to the benefit of the other 10 people, because everyone there has (likely) worked harder for it than you have or would benefit more from it. I could have rolled on a CT cloak yesterday but did not due to all the tank interest. If I won it, I probably would have been given shit over it and rightfully so. I was not deserving of that item and I recognized that.

    I do want to clarify that, in general, I am not talking about a person who is active but just happens to be new to raiding or to the guild. I am talking about the person that logs in once a blue moon, gets something great and then you don't see them again for a month (if ever again).
     
    Last edited: Jul 14, 2016
  5. Darchon

    Darchon I Feel Loved

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    Ahh those tells.

    The very few times I took loot tells for Temerity I got to experience some of those.

    "I pass it X is in" or "I pass if anyone else put in".

    I loved getting 2 of the exact same tell #2 on the same item.
     
  6. Ravenwing

    Ravenwing I Feel Loved

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    I once got one where three people went in, each explicitly passing to the other two by name.
     
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  7. Darchon

    Darchon I Feel Loved

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    Hahaha that is incredible.
     
  8. Delorne

    Delorne People Like Me

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    I frequently sent those tells, and I am unapologetic. Probably why I was raiding in PoTime with an ornate helmet.
     
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  9. Jugo!

    Jugo! People Like Me

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    This is an attitude I share in heavily. I don't even have a declared main ATM, despite encouragement to do so. No reason to- I'm happy to see guildies get geared. "I'll get mine when I get mine". No rush in getting pixels, personally. (Helps to not be playing a tank class this run around, admittedly)
     
  10. Bum

    Bum I Feel Loved

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    Cuz you are waiting to finally make that iksar warrior
     
  11. Theus

    Theus Well-Known Member

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    Well, this sums it up. In the long term, almost all loot systems are equal, at least for mains. So why not keep it easy? DKP seems to be a lot of work.
     
  12. Throy

    Throy Member

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    I disagree... if you play the random system fairly, then lets break it down. For example sake, let's say you want one item that drops 25% of the time. We'll say it's an average sought out item, so you're going to be randoming against 3 other people, so another 25% chance. Now, let's say we only kill that mob 1 out of 4 raids (other targets/zones), another 25%. Apply some probability calculations and that puts you at 1 out of 64 raids (average!). Put that into hours of an average raid and the numbers are pretty scary. Someone can check me on this, my math/statistics is pretty rusty :D.

    Sure, you can only show up to raid that target and increase your odds. Sure, you may be the lucky guy that gets it first time. Sure, you may want more than one item off other targets, but as I mentioned before... it's all about how often you roll. I only see this getting worse in future expansions as the number of targets will grow along with the number of people participating in the roll.
     
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  13. Bum

    Bum I Feel Loved

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    Last CT raid 2 ft robes dropped; we had 7 caster mains; 5 had vp robes and passed on the ft robes to the two mains without either

    Thus no rolling happened. The only two who put in got a bis robe without even having to roll. This is how random loot systems is win/win as long as everyone wants to help others be their best as well.
     
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  14. Darchon

    Darchon I Feel Loved

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    This speaks more to the virtue of the Al'Kabor community than virtue of the random system. Perhaps that's why it worked so well for Destiny though?

    Any other server you'd see a few of those guys with Azure Sky robe rolling because it doesn't cost them anything and 1 FT > 85 HP!
     
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  15. benoeb

    benoeb People Like Me

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    EQdkp Plus makes managing dkp extremely easy & you dont leave a lot of things to chance. Award points hourly for attendance, bonus points for 1st time boss kills, tax 28% of the dkp from everyone each week. This will prevent hoarding of points, incentivize people to show up because they will get something every raid in the form of dkp points at minimum, and make sure someone gets something they really want.

    I agree

    No matter how good of friends you are raiding with and no matter how great the guild is, after the nineteenth raid and no gear has come your raid you will start to get annoyed/dismayed about your time spent vs improvement of your character.

    This has a lot of truth to it.
     
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  16. Tuluvien

    Tuluvien I Feel Loved

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    Benoeb, I think the real division here is in the type of player. From the responses we can see that people who favour random are of the "whatever, let's play and have fun" category, while supporters of dkp etc. are posting percentage breakdowns, probabilities and speak mostly of material gain.

    I think people are just going to fall on one side of the fence or the other, and it's down to how many pixels one wants to own. And let's face it, any way you slice it /random has an air of casualness about it that many serious or "hardcore" players have a tough time swallowing.
     
    Last edited: Jul 17, 2016
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  17. Ablazze

    Ablazze Member

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    Not quite True, Raid leader did say if you had VP robe to not bother putting in P

    The Blazze...
     
  18. Bum

    Bum I Feel Loved

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    lolol blaze post 4!

    He said to consider, not you couldn't
     
  19. Elroz

    Elroz I Feel Loved Staff Member

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    which is basically saying, if you roll on this robe to upgrade vp robe, he'll stick you in bumming's group every raid until you quit eq
     
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  20. Ravenwing

    Ravenwing I Feel Loved

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    Tuluvien, I think you're right that there will always be some players who want to plot every element of their EQ experience on some kind of graph, and others who feel that words like "percentage" and "probability" sound vaguely suspicious. Most players likely fall somewhere in the middle, but you're probably also right that at the extreme ends, affection for random as opposed to structured loot systems will divide predictably between those two camps.

    I don't think there's anything wrong with strongly preferring one approach and finding the other a bit silly. I do think that painting disagreement with one's own perspective as a moral failing - obsession with pixels! greed! - is a temptation that we ought to resist, however.
     
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