Limit on Boxes

Discussion in 'General Discussion' started by Merriam, Jun 7, 2014.

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  1. Merriam

    Merriam Member

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    Jikasoz and I talked a bit on the subject already, but I was wondering if the powers that be have made any decisions on how many boxes will be allowed on the server. I think one of the attractive things about P99 is their restriction on boxes, but it was always nice having a boxed cleric or two in raids on AK. Just curious.
     
  2. Khirsa

    Khirsa New Member

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    OK, so far as I have seen the general consensus seems to be there will not be a box limit. With that being said the server is going to be as close to the Al Kabor server as possible so really if you can for example, man 4 toons then I suppose you can play 4 toons, same goes for other increments of character operation. These characters need to be physically operated though, there will be no scripts, MQ2, or any other type of automation allowed at all. There are tools in place for detection as well as actual GM's that will be present and looking out for this as well.

    That being said, the actual Guilds that establish on the server could as part of their guild rules set a limit on how many boxes they will allow you to play during any given time, IE. normal exp sessions and raid type events.

    This is also covered in the Forum > Rules > Rules 1.0
     
  3. Merriam

    Merriam Member

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    Aye, I read the rules, but like I said Jikasoz said that there may possibly be a limit. Was just looking to see if that was solidified or not.

    I boxxed 6 toons without 3rd party programs on AK, but it burned me out. I never played on PEQ long, but it seemed like a major complaint was boxxes running wild. It sounds like this will be prevented, so that's good.

    Either way, can't wait to play with Destiny again.
     
  4. Khirsa

    Khirsa New Member

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    Yes unless things have changed since I last spoke to other admins, there should be no defined limit set forth by management. What the guilds set forth will be on them.

    Though again if this should change in the future at some point the rule set will be updated and Im fairly positive that some one on staff will make a visible post on it.
     
  5. Faults

    Faults I Feel Loved

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    I personally hope the other way from merriam - I enjoy having a boxed group; it prevented burnout for me since I was able to do so much I never really got done with my to-do list for all my toons. I don't think anyone will be able to manually play as many toons as they do on TGC (in between 12 and 30?). I suppose the onus will be on boxers and players to be inclusive - as I think it should be.
     
  6. Merriam

    Merriam Member

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    Khirsa answered my question. Thanks :)
     
  7. Khirsa

    Khirsa New Member

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    Boxing a full group is not going to be against the rules set forth...I think that players should know their own limits as to boxing. Though I would keep in mind that some people will be relieved that they will not have to box a full group or even more than one toon if that is their preference. So we do not want to shut those single boxers out and alienate them because they can not find groups and such. I would imagine GMs will be working hard on game play issues and such and will not want to see problems of camp hogging and game play disruption due to a players inability to box well in addition to the rest of the problems that can creep up and could be easily avoided. People will be encouraged to be social and have fun interacting with other players from all over as this is a family server. We are not going to condone anti social behaviors so to speak... The goal is to recreate the Al Kabor server so that people can once again group/raid/play and have fun with old friends and even make new ones. :D
     
  8. wharhogg

    wharhogg Member

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    I plan on only boxing one.....I've boxed 4-6 and I find it less than enjoyable. I think everyone will find their niche and how many toons they want to play at once!
     
  9. Khirsa

    Khirsa New Member

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    I tend to agree with you there Whar, 2 is good 3 is work. Any thing more is just not really enjoyable. I only do it for like flaging purposes and such. But that's my preference.
     
  10. Sturmm

    Sturmm Well-Known Member

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    I loved having the OPTION to box toons for flags, shards, items, etc, but as a normal way to play I enjoyed it more being able to only focus on one or two toons max.
    Just need to figure out whether I'm going to make a paladin again or a ranger, cause I was starting to really dig Rickk there at the end...
     
  11. Lenas

    Lenas I Feel Loved Staff Member

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    I would like to see a limit on boxing (pref. 2) mostly because if it isn't around, eventually this will just end up as a clone of AK with people boxing their entire groups. Eventually you force everyone to box whether they want to or not because it's impossible to find others that aren't :/ It becomes very discouraging to new players and you end up with a top heavy server with no new blood.
     
  12. Speedz

    Speedz Administrator Staff Member

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    I think the main idea is to let the server grow out of its infancy and see how the players themselves evolve. Then us admins ponder what to do with boxing and progression. As far as I know there is a general lean toward no limits.

    If it becomes an issue we will address the issues accordingly. But you have a very active management here. We are always adjusting, adding content, watching how things progress. AK did not have a box limit, and you are right about the clone statement. This is the general intention of this project.

    The one thing you have here that AK did not have. An active player originated management.
     
  13. Lenas

    Lenas I Feel Loved Staff Member

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    Wouldn't it be safer to start off with a limit and think about removing said limit later on? If you launch and everyone gets used to having 6 of their own characters, they're never gonna want to give them up at a later point.
     
  14. Speedz

    Speedz Administrator Staff Member

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    Putting a limit right out of box is more like a p99 clone and not our intention. This is based off AK.
    Limiting later does not rob anyone of the toons they may have built IF we were to deem it necessary to limit later. They still will have their toons, they just need to pick what they have to play.
     
  15. Merriam

    Merriam Member

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    I'm great with limitations or none at all. I'll play by the rules. I just wanna play! However, I wonder if changing a rule after a time - especially one as big as this, is a good idea.

    Is this new server meant to mirror AK before or after it went free-to-play? How many people really boxxed 6 toons before then? I honestly don't know. I joined the server after. Back in the old days (2000-2006), I paid for 3 accounts. I didn't know that many people who paid for more, though I'm sure there were some. Because of this, I could see logic in placing a restriction on boxes.

    If you're looking for a sunset AK experience, then why even discuss the possibility of boxes? There was no restriction for us then. I never used any outside programs to manage my boxes on AK, but my understanding was that they made playing more than a few toons ridiculously easy. Since you're outlawing these programs, then I see the argument for no restrictions.

    Khirsa said no restrictions already, but I guess this really hasn't been decided yet? Either way, can't wait to play.
     
  16. Jikasoz

    Jikasoz Member

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    The reason limiting boxes is even being discussed is simply the team trying to plan ahead for future issues. While at the start we won't have a limit, we're trying to keep in mind the issues Emu communities face. While yes, the overarching goal is to replicate the Al`Kabor experience, we also know that the community as it was is shattered and has separated, with all going many separate ways. The concept of limiting boxing is simply one method, which hasn't been entirely ruled out, to help foster an emulated community and make the server more attractive to the longstanding members of the Al`Kabor community. While the goal is not to ostracize the newer members of Al`Kabor, it can't be helped that boxing was limited for the overwhelming majority of Al`Kabor's life, due mainly to the cost of accounts.

    With all that said, to start the goal is not to limit boxing. We're just trying to keep all options on the table, as well as communicated to the community in the event that limiting boxing becomes something that needs to be more seriously considered.
     
  17. Guero

    Guero Member

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    Good to hear Jika. While things will be a little miserable at the beginning (1-50) but hopefully people will sacrifice a little of their own boxes and allow non boxers that are LFG into their groups. The most important aspect of this being both successful and for the server to thrive we will need people to be more social and work together for common goals(ie leveling, etc)

    I should also add that boxing is an absolute necessity imho on the server. The high end game will demand it and it should never be ostracized. A heavy surplus of characters accessible so that raids can go on even when some people are not able to make it is essential.
     
  18. Torven

    Torven I Feel Loved Staff Member

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    This.

    Boxing went extreme only after Al'Kabor went F2P. For those unaware, let me explain what ended up happening. I ended up boxing up to 8 at once, and joined a guild full of boxers. My guild leader boxed 18 on raids. (this guy often 'soloed' Seru. Not that I don't love you Gaeldar) We were making legitimate attempts on the Rallos Zek encounter with FIVE real life persons, using a botted CH rotation and keycloned wizards. Unlimited boxing means your raids will have botted CH rotations or you will get outcompeted by raids that do have them. It is utterly trivial to bot CH rots without even using software-- you can use one of the programmable keyboards as all it is is alt-tab, 1, alt-tab, 1, alt-tab, 1 etc. Want to schedule your elemental raids for mold drops? Sorry. They were killed at 3:00am by two people. Why do you think Layonhands used warp hacks to train us for hours every day on the Rallos encounter? (even though we were going to rotate, but frankly we didn't have to because we could kill ele dropping mobs any time of the day or night, and certainly would have after the trains began)

    I would argue that unlimited boxing will turn more people off than limiting boxing will turn people off. I won't play on a server without a limit. (for the record I prefer a limit of 2) I had fun 6-8 boxing on Al'Kabor, but Al'Kabor had warp hack trainers keeping boxing guilds outside the elemental planes, and that won't happen here-- don't expect to relive the Tem and Destiny raiding days if you allow unlimited boxing. Although I'm more interested in a development role now to preserve the game before SOE kills it anyway.
     
  19. Tollen

    Tollen Member

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    with an active GM team, we shouldn't have to worry about warp training and such, so I only see box's making people anti social. IMO
     
  20. Khirsa

    Khirsa New Member

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    Very good point there. Though one major reason we are not going to enforce a box limit at this time is because of the fact that some of the staff will be actually playing and GMs will be watching. Botting of any sort is just not permitted. NO automation of any kind, program or a programmable keyboard or what ever will be allowed at all. We will be watching for it and I know there will be atleast one person to test the GMs, and they will be banned. If you want automated boxing then you can ask some of the staff and we can maybe point you to a server better suited for that style of game play. I have spoke to some of the gm staff and they are like a bunch of sharks waiting for folks to enter the water. So DO NOT do it, it just isn't worth getting banned.

    I would hope that since al kabs shut down we all saw that certain things played a part in the demise of that server and that we all would try hard not to let history repeat it's self.

    I personally (to address Torven on the 18 box thing) view that as kinda anti social. This server is not about that sort of thing at all. While that may be the way things work or have to work on other servers that's just not the case here. I would hope that people would drop a box to let a lfg person partake in the fun that is playing the game. I would hope that the guilds and their management would take into consideration their players wishes and set forth their own limits and rules if that is what is desired and or needed.
     
  21. Tollen

    Tollen Member

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    True, I myself did Box 6 on AK near the end just so I could experience some other Content on my own.

    I see my self boxing 3 here at most, and bard ing it up solo/group a lot.
     
  22. Faults

    Faults I Feel Loved

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    At the end of AK i was boxing 8-10 without any software. I did have 5 computers which made some classes ridiculously easy when I didn't have to bother to alt-tab to anything - I'd like to box at least 3 with a max of 6. A boxing limit doesn't necessarily force people to be social either, often the same people who would box 6 and never invite anyone to join will be the same people who box 3 and do the same, or play a necromancer/druid/soloing class that doesn't require help. A boxing limit doesn't change the attitude of the player behind it.
     
  23. Lenas

    Lenas I Feel Loved Staff Member

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    You say this server isn't antisocial but if you don't limit boxes that is exactly what it will become. It happened to Al'kabor and it will happen to your Al'kabor project if you don't prevent it. Three people in a row admitting to boxing 6-18, don't be blind, it WILL happen and it will alienate anyone that doesn't play along.
     
  24. necra

    necra People Like Me

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    The thought of lot of people 6 boxing in classic is a little off putting with the limited amount of camps. My thoughts on this would be to limit boxing to 3 characters total in classic then add more boxes allowed as content is released if the community want this. However that said even if there is no limit on boxing ill still be playing.
     
  25. Speedz

    Speedz Administrator Staff Member

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    ^^This makes me smile. Good to see some positive here.
     
  26. Torven

    Torven I Feel Loved Staff Member

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    With all due respect I think this is a bit naive. For one, botting actually has a large grey area. I myself don't view keycloning as 'botting' or automating at all, nor do I have much issue with a simple alt-tab, 1, repeat macro on a Gsomething keyboard. Simple automation that doesn't involve taking input from the client somehow (i.e. pixel color picking or log reading) in my opinion is mostly fine, although that's my personal opinion. Keycloning alone is sufficient enough to box an unlimited number of wizards; and combined with clever in-game macros, you can even stagger heals on multiple boxes that way. The Mac client allows players to hold a key down to loop macros anyway.

    Secondly, it's a lot harder to tell if somebody is 'botting' something as simple as a CH rot than it is to determine if somebody is boxing. I'll admit that some of my friends bent and broke some rules on severs like project 1999. They boxed all the time before the spyware and nobody caught them. I'll flat out admit I used showeq on p99 before they put in the spyware, and I used a warp hack to collect some data for the emus before al'kabor closed (but only for that purpose), so I'm not entirely unfamiliar with how cheating works. I also had some small scripts I wrote to box with. I'm telling you that you cannot tell for certain if somebody is boxing a CH rot or not-- and when you issue bans, you have to be pretty damn sure. It's simple as can be to manually handle a CH rot of any size if you're doing nothing else. I used to PBAoE manually rarely when it was too inconvenient to set up my multibox software and that's a hell of a lot more complicated then boxing entire armies of wizards or rot clerics. For raids, I used to have a macro on my wizards to simply cast 5 nukes + delays between each that I only had to hit once every 50 odd seconds; fire and forget without any 3rd party software.

    And really, it doesn't much solve the problem. Instead of having your entire CH rot on autopilot, you just dedicate one person to doing the rot manually. He could box 10 clerics very easily (albeit tediously) without any automation. So instead of 2 people killing raid bosses, you have 3 people killing raid bosses-- one does the entire CH rot, one handles 18 wizards, and one does the pulling+MTing+debuffs. It's a HUGE advantage to allow one person to handle the entire CH rot at all, automatically or manually.

    If you don't force grouping on people they won't do it. You can't get people to drop their mercenaries on EQ live right now, and a lot of people won't want to give up exp for one of their boxes to group strangers who will probably play worse than their left hand. (I know I wouldn't)

    Guilds who don't allow boxing will get outcompeted by guilds who do box. As a small example, when the BoT minis spawned, a single boxer (I was one of these people) could log in 6 accounts, mobilize and kill them in minutes, before any group of 6 non-boxers could form up. To put it bluntly, large scale boxing ruins the game for single boxers. I mostly did it because Al'Kabor was a bit of a ghost town, and I wanted to make some neat youtube videos. In fact you could very well end up in a situation where people who DON'T EVEN WANT to box will end up doing it, just to compete.

    I much prefer an environment more like p99, but again I like a 2 box limit instead of 1. Even a 2 box limit will put pressure on people to box though, but it's a good compromise IMO.
     
  27. Merriam

    Merriam Member

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    I thought this question was answered. But since everyone else is throwing in their opinion (and I did start the thread), here are my thoughts.

    I started on P99 last week for the first time, and just like when I started on AK, I had one little bard. I played my bard on AK to level 51 and got my epic with the help of Destiny before I had even considered starting a box. I love the bard class, and I love that groups wanted a good bard in their group. Logic kicked in eventually, however, and I thought "Hey, if I had a cleric, I could probably camp that (insert whatever not too difficult camp here) without asking people to waste their time to help me."

    So made a cleric and leveled him to 30 or whatever. Then logic kicks in a little more and I think, "man, this is pretty easy. If I had a tank, I could probably do (insert whatever more difficult camp) just as easily." So I made a little Sk and leveled her with my cleric to 55 or something. You get the idea. This went on, with me leveling a box, one at a time, until I was doing epics alone. BoT minis alone. Though I always -ALWAYS- made room for any LFGs from the guild or otherwise, I know some players eventually left me alone as "that boxer".

    My little bard on P99 is now 17 and it's awesome. It's just like when I started on AK, but better, because there are so many people who are looking for a group at all times. So when I found Jikasoz on P99 a few days ago, he told me about this project and I was so excited. At that time, he mentioned that they were thinking about a one box limit. That seemed reasonable to me. When Khirsa said there would be no limit, I admit I was less excited about the server for all the reasons I stated and for some of the reasons others have.

    I'm going to give the server a try because I can't wait to hang with Destiny peeps again. I also adore this era of Everquest. I think this game, at this time, is one of the best MMORPGs ever. I'm rooting for it. I'm new to emulation EQ. Maybe these things aren't as big a deal as I think, but my gut tells me that allowing unlimited boxes and/or changing rules after a time is a bad idea. I hope I'm wrong. I'm going to give it a go, whatever the ruleset!

    *edit*

    I just wanna add that I think there are pros and cons to both decisions. I don't want to say that I didn't love being able to do any dungeon whenever I wanted to, or camp any illusion mask I wanted. Boxxing is a different sort of challenge. I'm a goal oriented person, and I loved being able to log in and do what I wanted when I wanted. That said, I wonder about the long-term health of a server with unlimited boxxing. That's my only point. It's going to be fun no matter what, and I really can't wait. Though I'm leaving for vacation on Thursday, so I'm waiting no matter what, I guess.
     
  28. Theus

    Theus Well-Known Member

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    This sums it up very well.

    During the last year of Al Kabor, I have a cleric/warrior combo which could duo fiends. Toward the end, my cleric was very close to max AAs, Theus never got his intelligence AAs. I started AAing a cleric shared by a few of us in Destiny and running Theus out of group. I often started at fiends alone. Soon, people would see there was someone there and ask to join. I always dropped down to just running my warrior if there were enough people wanting in. Boxing allowed me to start many fiends groups that would have otherwise never started. Raiding, I almost always boxed two clerics. I never boxed more than three at any time (raiding or grouping).
     
  29. darco

    darco New Member

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    I'm all for no limits if it means i dont have to play with people like faults, merriam, khirsa, guerro, jik, etc.

    Seriously though, would be good just to log in again...
     
  30. Aerili

    Aerili Member

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    145
    Look what the cat dragged in...
     
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