How does armor currently work here?

Discussion in 'General Discussion' started by Cerebro, Oct 28, 2015.

  1. Cerebro

    Cerebro Member

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    Does armor have a soft cap? hard cap?

    Are there class specific and level specific caps?

    My main question is: is there a soft/hard cap on total AC (spell+worn not including shield) for level 60 warriors? and if so what is it?
     
  2. Torven

    Torven I Feel Loved Staff Member

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    There is no hard cap. The softcap is somewhat difficult to reach with Kunark era gear. The softcap will become less severe once PoP launches as people level beyond 60. The combat stability AA raises the softcap as well.

    Shield AC raises the softcap, so shield AC will never be mitigated. Other than that, it's all mitigated after the softcap is reached. The softcap for warriors is 430 mitigation AC, (taken from a client decompile; thanks Demonstar) which is a value calculated from defense skill, agility, worn AC, spell AC. How to calculate mitigation AC can be read here: https://forums.daybreakgames.com/eq/index.php?threads/ac-vs-acv2.210028/
     
  3. Cerebro

    Cerebro Member

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    Awesome reply. thanks!

    From my napkin math its looking like warriors in cobalt not neglecting AC in other slots will end up ~ 474 mitigation AC buffed (with a total of 276 AC on items, no shield)?

    Assuming everything else remaining constant and for 160 agi, 58 AC from buffs, for a 60 war the soft cap seems to apply to anything beyond 243 AC total from your items?
     
    Last edited: Oct 28, 2015
  4. ~Mae~

    ~Mae~ New Member

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    Dont' forget classes like warriors get a much bigger return on mitigation over their own softcap than other classes. something on the order of 2x the return on ac over the softcap, so softcap or no AC is always a good stat on a class like a warrior :)
     
  5. Torven

    Torven I Feel Loved Staff Member

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  6. Pithy

    Pithy People Like Me

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    Necropost! Just wondering if the AC calculations have been updated since the version Torven linked. If not, monks are papertanks here! 315 softcap (lower than the 350 softcap for pure casters), with 5% returns on AC over the cap (the same as pure casters and priests), increasing slightly to 8.3% in PoP. That sounds AK-urate (Ryoku suuuuucked at tanking, as well as most other things in life), but ex-P99ers who roll monks are in for a shock.

    Out of curiosity, do we know which client Demonstar55 decompiled to get the softcap numbers? OS X Intel client, Titanium, other? Did the over-cap return numbers also come from that decompile?
     
    Last edited: Jul 7, 2016
  7. Torven

    Torven I Feel Loved Staff Member

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    I was still adding some things like atk and buff AC when that was posted, but the mitigation AC calculation for players from worn armor is the same.

    The decompile was from the Macintosh binary I believe. It was a EQMac client. Softcaps aren't found in the Titanium client. Yes, the overcap divisors were obtained from there as well.

    Sony nerfed monk AC just before AK forked because Furor was bitching about monks tanking too well (and they were, really) but they over did it and corrected it not long after AK forked. So AK had paper monks.

    More information on how TAKP's melee combat model functions can be found here: http://www.eqemulator.org/forums/showthread.php?t=40543
     
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  8. Pithy

    Pithy People Like Me

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    Thanks for the link and the great work in it, Torven.

    On the plus side for monks, at least they're dodgy! And in Kunark gear, most folks probably aren't hitting their softcaps anyway. But come Velious, raid-geared TAKP monks are going to tank sooo much worse than their (overpowered) P99 counterparts.
     
  9. Pithy

    Pithy People Like Me

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    Also hilarious: for pure casters and priests above the softcap, 1 point of shield AC is worth 20 points of non-shield AC. So AHR's 80 AC shield improves a priest's mitigation AC as much as wearing 1,600 AC in non-shield items. Shields ftw!
     
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  10. Bum

    Bum I Feel Loved

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  11. Elroz

    Elroz People Like Me Staff Member

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    Has to be classified as a shield I'm pretty sure. Held items like books don't work. It's like if the item would work with the bash skill, then it's classified as a shield and gives shield ac.
     
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  12. lurari

    lurari People Like Me

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  13. Ravenwing

    Ravenwing I Feel Loved

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    AHR's book was the highest-AC ENC shield we had outside of Time on AK. It was probably my imagination (likely the effect was too slight to be noticeable), but I always felt like I could actually see arcane rune lasting longer against light blue trash with it equipped.
     
  14. Pithy

    Pithy People Like Me

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    Doze shield is a good option for priests and casters before Luclin. Then DXXT book stick --> AHR book stick.

    Bear in mind that if you're under the softcap, which for casters is 350, then 1 point of shield AC is only worth 1 point of non-shield AC. I don't think any casters will hit that in Kunark, or probably even Velious. Until Luclin, I guess shields are mostly relevant for knights, clerics and shamans, who have lots of high-AC armor options.

    On another note, bards mitigate surprisingly well. Pretty high softcap, pretty good overcap returns (12.5% pre-PoP, 16.7% in PoP; compare to 16.7%/20% pre-PoP and 25%/33% in PoP for knights/warriors).
     
    Last edited: Jul 7, 2016
  15. Ravenwing

    Ravenwing I Feel Loved

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    Somehow it doesn't surprise me at all to learn that Ryoku's worn AC softcap was actually significantly lower than Raven's :rolleyes:. By almost 100 points, if we count Raven's shield!

    All those times I was pulling and thought, "What the hell, I'll just go ahead and ramp tank TVK myse-- SPLAT!"
     
    Last edited: Jul 7, 2016
  16. Pithy

    Pithy People Like Me

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    Hah, yeah. Watching you get gnwned was great. Memories!
     
  17. Pithy

    Pithy People Like Me

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    moar tidbits: if I crunched the numbers right, with level 60 skill caps the total chances to evade an attack through a defensive skill are...

    warrior (225 riposte, 230 parry, 175 dodge)
    6.5% riposte chance
    if no riposte, 7.3% parry chance --> 6.9% total parry chance
    if no riposte/parry, 6.1% dodge chance --> 5.3% total dodge chance
    --> 18.7% total chance

    knight (200 riposte, 200 parry, 155 dodge)
    6% riposte chance
    if no riposte, 6.7% parry chance --> 6.3% total parry chance
    if no riposte/parry, 5.7% dodge chance --> 5.0% total dodge chance
    --> 17.3% total chance

    monk (225 riposte, 225 block, 230 dodge)
    6.5% riposte chance
    if no riposte, 13% block chance --> 12.1% total block chance
    if no riposte/block, 7.33% dodge chance --> 5.9% total dodge chance
    --> 24.5% total chance

    I crunched those numbers using floating point arithmetic, whereas the actual code uses integer arithmetic, so the chances are off a bit. But probably not super far off. Knights are surprisingly close to warriors in skill-based evasion!

    Donno how this changes with PoP skill caps and Luclin/PoP AAs. I'm guessing the warrior/knight gap widens.
     
    Last edited: Jul 7, 2016
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  18. Pithy

    Pithy People Like Me

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    Heh. Haven't looked at the avoidance part of defensive calculations, but it seems it should be similar for knights and warriors. If that's true, then Pre-PoP a knight should take pretty durn similar damage to a non-discing warrior. Knights have 17.3% chance to riposte/parry/dodge vs. warriors' 18.7%, have an AC softcap of 403 vs. warriors' 430, and get about 16.7% overcap returns vs. warriors' 20%. Warriors have better itemization and a bit more innate hp, but knights can wear shields...
     
    Last edited: Jul 7, 2016
  19. thucydides

    thucydides People Like Me

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    I havent clicked the link yet (on my phone from the farm during the early week), but does the code there answer the age old question of 1 ac = X hp .. ?
     
  20. Pithy

    Pithy People Like Me

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    Turns out dodge mods are not super useful for pure casters, as we kinda suspected. 8% dodge mod on AHR wrist increases silky dodge chance from 3.89% to 4.02%. Meh.
     
    Last edited: Jul 7, 2016
  21. Pithy

    Pithy People Like Me

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    I wish! Think that depends a lot on what's swingin' at ya, its accuracy/DI/DB, whether it has damage procs or AEs, ... :rolleyes:
     
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  22. lurari

    lurari People Like Me

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    1 ac > infinite hp.

    I think Brael did the math almost two decades ago.

    Yup! Warriors could disc, but otherwise shouldn't be any better tanks in our era. Warriors fixing their aggro and ability to wear shields in later eras allowed them to become the best tanks, but in our era knights are likely superior tanks by the numbers. Knights also have the ability to self-heal, and this becomes its own topic altogether!
     
  23. Delorne

    Delorne People Like Me

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    I frickin' love posts with numbers in them. I don't know why I'm such a goddamn nerd.

    Look at those returns for bards. And people doubted me when I busted out my shield for RTing (I had shit for HP and clerics hated me).
     
  24. Torven

    Torven I Feel Loved Staff Member

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    It's very important to understand that the cap values are NOT the worn values you see on equipment. You'll hit them a lot sooner than you realize.

    The caps are mitigation AC caps, not worn AC caps. Mit AC includes defense skill, agility, buffs and even racial bonuses-- every source of mitigation AC is reduced over the cap other than shields. Worn AC on gear is actually multiplied by 1.33333 when added to mit AC. (EQ likes to do that in several places for whatever reason) So you'll hit the caps in Kunark if you're wearing a full Kunark armor set.

    At one point in early 2004 I had the most AC of any warrior/player on any server. Not to boast. (I'm totally boasting) I went hard AC when HP was most tanks' preference.

    However I only went AC after gear that increased my proc rate. I stacked combat effects so my proc rate was rather silly, reaching something like 12 procs a minute. (we had augments) What I would do is switch to my Rallos shield after defense disc ended, as by then I had an enormous hate advantage over everybody else. The Darkblade from Rallos has a massive hate proc, increased proc rate and is 1 handed. I think TAKP wars using that could also get away with switching to a shield after 3 minutes. The bloodfrenzy also procs more often than most weapons. Also some war shields in PoP have a +hate mod for bash. I forget how effective it was at generating hate; I'll have to check on that later.

    But yeah, knights are the clear winners for any non-disc fighting. I loved my well geared warrior 13 years ago, but I wasn't stupid and rolled a paladin on AK, which I also enjoyed as he could function very well without raid gear.
     
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  25. Ravenwing

    Ravenwing I Feel Loved

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    Wow. I also missed the fact that those caps apply to mitigation AC rather than raw worn AC. That's brutal!

    Pithy tested the hatemod on Furious Bash and it was garbage for warriors (with FB4, it took something like 42 bashes to out-aggro one tash as opposed to an unmodified 60). The fact that like other focus effects on Al'Kabor, it triggered on class-appropriate spells but not on other spells meant that it was ironically pretty nice for knights.

    Even so, Bragon sometimes swapped his MAoE shield in with his Darkblade (and maybe even his Bloodfrenzy, before that) when his disc dropped, and seemed to do okay for aggro.
     
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  26. Lenas

    Lenas I Feel Loved Staff Member

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    This conversation is legit amazing. I am not a smart enough man to figure out numbers but a compiled list of optimum worn AC + ideal stats (maybe compiled on the wiki?!) would be so awesome.
     
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  27. surron

    surron People Like Me

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    people wonder why i rock draco shield on my cleric, hes a beast!
     
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  28. Bum

    Bum I Feel Loved

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  29. Bum

    Bum I Feel Loved

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    Just saw the class area for shield on allaclone

    http://www.takproject.net/allaclone/item.php?id=5741
     
  30. Yinn Yang

    Yinn Yang People Like Me

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    Wow, I sure remember that. I haven't heard anyone mention Furor in years :) He was all over the forums complaining about monks back in the day. Seem to even recall him posting on the old EverLore site, anyone remember that one?