9-19-2018

Discussion in 'Changelog' started by robregen, Sep 19, 2018.

  1. Foxboxx

    Foxboxx Member

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    56
    It makes sense non-trueshotted Archery would rival VT bane weps, or even beat it really. VT bane weps are about at the ratio when melee begins to rival even PoP bows. Going from trueshot into melee is likely the best dps path in VT once you have bane weps.
     
  2. Denzal

    Denzal Member

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    25
    To preface this, thanks for responding. I know I'm not vocal nor post on things so the fact you read and responded to what I had to say when I am not one of the "main" people on here is appreciated.

    That would be amazing. It would be so nice to not have to exp only in Valor and having other zones to hunt in. Let's be honest no one ever went to HoH to exp unless it was some Necro kiting or some ENC deciding to charm. Literally only went to that zone to flag Mith Marr. Valor, tactics, and EP were the only zones populated for exp (with some lower ones, pon, poi, etc.). In reality tactics was usually empty as well, EVERYONE was in valor.

    Having different zones to page in actually takes care of the supply problem and conflict between players wanting to exp and players wanting to page.

    Even if we could allow it without making it worse than AK, allowing somebody to level a new character from 1 to 65 with 100 AAs in a day is problematic.

    I'm a scrub with this forum posting and split posting so I apologize. I do not see a problem with the above. I'm not 16 years old anymore, I have a job, a wife, kids eventually. I still love the game and want to play. Making the game more accessible to people isn't a bad thing. If someone doesn't want to page that's there decision. I really never understood people who think they have to right to judge or decide how people play the game or what makes them happy. Your rights end where another's begin. Live and let live. etc.

    Imagine the shitstorm if we allowed shakerpaging which resulted in zones becoming unusuable

    I don't know if this is a server load issue or a training issue. On AK I paged a lot, but whenever a group moved into the zone I stopped, I knew that I didn't have the right to camp a whole zone and ruin everyone else's enjoyment. a simple server rule (and common decency which seems to be lost here based on some forum posts) would take care of the training issue. if it is a server issue then well I'll donate to get one that can run it.

    Would you exp by killing one mob at a time while your guildmates were getting exp 20x faster with rampage? No, and neither would anybody else.

    No I wouldn't, but I'd probably mess around on some alts and meet new players and probably go do something fun or crazy like camping a Lord Bob axe instead of mindlessly grinding away one mob at a time.

    This goes back to my original point though. I do not believe it is right or makes sense to nerf a mechanic that is legitimate and used. It's not like DA is/was a bug like perma pac (which clearly was not intended and was an AK quirk). I guess that's where I draw the line and would like to see the line drawn by the devs. That said I know my opinion doesn't mean much in the grand scheme of things, but I for one am wary of the path we are on when everything is up for the nerf bat if it is deemed "easy" or "overpowered"
     
  3. showstring

    showstring People Like Me

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    841
    both going up and down, and my experience has been with 'north tube' going to arch lich / hp at loc 200,200

    i've tried these actions with mixed results:
    1. swim warrior from 1st floor tube up to 2nd floor, agro a mob, swim down to try and bring to camp. no mob comes so i immediately /camp and pray i camp out in time
    2. get a target on 2nd floor and /pet attack with a charmed pet from the 1st floor up the tube. sometimes it works and pet attacks, then i engage with rest of crew. sometimes pet disappears
    3. repeat step 2 but in downward direction, by getting target on first floor and /pet attack with charm pet from 2nd floor

    I've also heard reports from my guildmates that pathing 'was worse' at the last cursed attempt and they had some issues in basement with tube pathing or some such. I wasn't there so don't know what happened, was just told pathing seemed worse.
     
  4. Saenayil

    Saenayil Active Member

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    87
    @solar

    I did some bard testing today. I have SM3 and JF3. Here were the results -

    Base: 22 DS
    Epic equipped: 33 DS
    Amp: 50 DS
    Epic + Amp: 50 DS
    Puretone + Epic: 50 DS
    Puretone + Epic + Amp: 50 DS



    Earlier tests I had these results before I purchased AA -

    Base: 13 DS
    Epic: 23 DS
    Amp: 24 DS
    Epic + Amp: 44 DS



    Assessment -

    Unfortunately I couldn't test this incrementally, but the information I have suggests that psalm damage is increasing by 1 base point from 13 to 14 due to Jam Fest 3. I'm not sure how the calc works, but this seems reasonable for a 5 level jump.

    With an assumed base of 14, and SM 3 mod of .6, the new damage would be 22.4, which rounds to 22.

    With SM mod of .6 + epic mod of .8, the new damage would be 33.6, which rounds to 34. I assume for game calcs, the floor of a fractional number is used for the final int value.


    The interesting piece to me here is amplification. I don't know how much amplification is supposed to add, but mine bumped DS up to 50, which seemed to be max mod.

    Puretone also bumped the DS to 50, but I forgot to test without epic, and epic + puretone should cap regardless.

    Speaking of which. What is the bard mod cap? I found online that it should be 4.2, but these calcs indicate it is probably 3.6 on TAKP.
     
  5. Ravenwing

    Ravenwing I Feel Loved

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    2,287
    3.6 is correct. Ayonae's Tutelage will raise it 3.9 in PoP.
     
  6. solar

    solar People Like Me Staff Member

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    The cap is 3.6.
    Amplification seems like it should give an additional 0.9 singing benefit at level 60 (1.0 at 65) but it's currently being modified by singing mastery and epic so it ends up as an additional modifier on the bard's total singing modifier which is then capped to 3.6. I think Amplification probably shouldn't be boosted by singing mods like this.
     
  7. Inacht

    Inacht Member

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    18
    Cursed was definitely being a funky boy on thurs. we tag him and kite him around the basement near the mines while the raid migrates and gets prepped for the fight to keep his timer from running. He'd stop around -400 / 700 or so and move in a little triangle pattern until the kiter moved out from behind the building which I was told he didn't typically do. Also exiled got stuck on the ramp down and couldn't be cast on until he bonked the puller, then he shook loose.
     
  8. Pithy

    Pithy People Like Me

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    1,321
    @Haynar: the Ssra pathing issues I observed (and mentioned upthread) were in the tube to the basement. I tried similar actions to the ones Rimidal mentioned: (1) swim SK down, aggro mobs, swim back up, and (2) swim enchanter down, ask pet to follow.

    (1) worked once and failed twice. When it failed, the mob appeared to warp somewhere on the second floor, took a very long time to path home and brought friends when it did.

    (2) failed the one time I tried it; the pet warped "somewhere" and aggro'd a bunch of mobs. I gated the chanter before charm broke or the pet died.
     
  9. Ravenwing

    Ravenwing I Feel Loved

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    2,287
    Agreed - I'm pretty sure it should be unmodded.
     
  10. Tarkon

    Tarkon Active Member

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    129
    The SSRA pathing issue I have witnessed is if I am killing a Shissar Observer or Shissar Tormentor in the basement and it starts to flee to the tube, then it doesn't go up the basement tube. It appears to get teleported to the North Tube, wreaking all sorts of trains and havoc.
     
  11. Slayzz

    Slayzz Active Member

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    157
    So I just want to make a complete side note about this thread. After reading through almost every post in this thread and contributing to the conversation as well, it honestly has me smiling in appreciation for this server, the players, the devs, and everyone who is a part of it.

    Outside of 1 or 2 posts.... out of the close to 300 at the time of this posting.... EVERY SINGLE OTHER POST has been positive and constructive regardless of differing opinions.

    It shows our maturity and appreciation for the server and it’s just cool to see. It’s nice to know that PLAYERS can express their opinions maturely and respectfully. It’s nice that DEVS can listen without becoming defensive about their decisions.

    It’s just nice to see that regardless of whether we disagree on a topic that we can discuss it like adults instead of children.

    Disagreements will always arise. Some battles we as players will win. Some we will lose. But it’s just cool to see that the process to get there is usually very diplomatic.

    Kudos to all
     
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  12. solar

    solar People Like Me Staff Member

    Messages:
    213
    Thanks for the help with figuring this out. Do the other numbers look right to you?

    Also, do you know anything about duration extension on bard songs? I found some info that suggests that players above a certain level get extra tics but maybe I'm misunderstanding and it applies to later eras. In any case, whatever we do has to match what's coded in our client, and it appears to be correct now?
     
  13. lurari

    lurari People Like Me

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    Extra tics came later.
     
  14. Slayzz

    Slayzz Active Member

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    157
    I had a similar thing happen to me. I was bringing a revenant down the basement tube and it somehow teleported to the north tube and was killed by mobs up there. I know this as my chanter was summoned to the N com2 area
     
  15. Ravenwing

    Ravenwing I Feel Loved

    Messages:
    2,287
    I think so! I am a dilettante bard, so take this with a grain of salt, but the numbers Taelor posted seem to line up with what I would expect.

    I agree with Lurari that as far as I'm aware, there was no duration extension for bards on AK.
     
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  16. Pithy

    Pithy People Like Me

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    Out of curiosity, how are edge weights computed in the pathing network when there's a z-axis differential? Is it Euclidean distance, weight = sqrt(delta_x^2 + delta_y^2 + delta_z^2), or something fancier?
     
  17. lurari

    lurari People Like Me

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    502
    Is anyone else struggling to understand Pithy's words after "curiosity?"

    Asking for a friend.
     
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  18. Pithy

    Pithy People Like Me

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    1,321
    Haha, I slew this thread with the awesome power of MATH.
     
  19. Haynar

    Haynar Administrator Staff Member

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    2,534
    I don't do weights. I used Dijkstra's algorithm to precalculate all the distances between the pathing nodes, and store the shortest distance nearest node to reach the final destination. I can quickly find the actual distance to find nearest path nodes to start. With the precalculated distances and shortest paths between nodes, I can then see what takes the shortest route.

    When working with distances. Usually dont take the square root. Just extra math. Since not doing a true distance weighting.
     
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  20. Thunderace

    Thunderace Active Member

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    160
    hold my beer
     
  21. Pithy

    Pithy People Like Me

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    1,321
    Makes sense, thanks Haynar.
     
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  22. Devour_Souls

    Devour_Souls Active Member

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    While pulling a mob down the north tube yesterday, XTC killed the puller inside the tube. Also pulling a mob down the tube resulted in every snake between XTC and the North tube appearing at the bottom of the tube.
     
  23. Saenayil

    Saenayil Active Member

    Messages:
    87

    I'm not sure I fully understand. What distances are you precalculating and storing? The shortest path from each node in a zone to every other node in the zone? That doesn't sound feasible to me from a pure storage perspective.

    I would imagine when determining pathing that you have a mob M in a static location. When player P aggros mob M, dijkstra finds the shortest path between M and P, and M moves along the graph towards P. Assuming all nodes are equidistant to each other (a bold assumption, to be sure), as M moves to different nodes, it should be quick to update the shortest path on the fly even if P is moving along nodes as well. If nodes are not equidistant, particularly on the Z-axis, I can see that shortest path changing from an expected path to a completely unexpected one, leading to some pathing anomalies.
     
  24. Slayzz

    Slayzz Active Member

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    157
    Not one word.... good to know I’m not the only one... I was like what...... the.... f$*k.
     
  25. Pithy

    Pithy People Like Me

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    I think Dijkstra's is run offline to find the shortest path between each pair of nodes in the graph, Tae, which are stored in a big table. The online implementation is just a table lookup.

    I was wondering if vertical distances were handled differently, but it sounds like it's all the same. So some other thing I have zero understanding of makes vertical pathing wonky :p
     
  26. necra

    necra People Like Me

    Messages:
    346
    LIAR!!!
     
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  27. Saenayil

    Saenayil Active Member

    Messages:
    87
    Maybe I am overestimating the amount of nodes in a zone. To store all the shortest paths between nodes would take n*(n-1) entries in a table (I think?). And then lookups wouldn't be in constant time, so that's very expensive to search that table each time either M or P position is updated.

    If there are 100k nodes in a zone, that means you will need nearly 10 billion table entries to store all the shortest paths. Either I'm overestimating the number of nodes, there is some batching/grouping of nodes for efficiency and optimization, or the implementation is different than how I'm understanding it.
     
  28. Lenas

    Lenas I Feel Loved Staff Member

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  29. Jugo!

    Jugo! People Like Me

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    446
    Caveat, I've only read 3 pages of this discussion. (Pg 1 and I skipped to page 8-9 cuz I was stalking Bum.)

    For whatever it's worth, I was also unaware of DA wiping agro once it expired. I don't believe I clicked it off on Jugo, I'm guessing those were all bard DA's, and I wouldn't have clicked those off, anyways. Those 5-6 cases are purely happenstance, due to the volume of raiding I did for a time. Bards doing whatever they do while pumping Jugo with mana. I used the Voice bug more frequently, but not religiously, as I'm sure my logs will indicate. (that's fixed on here, right?) I also regularly logged Jugo off when I felt it was getting too hot.

    This is not a condemnation for your interpretation of my logs but more of a "look at the context" remark. Please do continue using my logs. I don't mind!

    Gamer culture nowadays, I feel, has changed more to search for every edge to use/ simplify games, and from what it sounds like, DA song did this for DPS. EQ is still relatively speaking, one of the few games that hasn't been datamined/parsed/analyzed/documented to death (or whatever the term may be). Strats that were discovered, and rarely used (if at all?) can come to the forefront when other things are eliminated from usage. Such as is the nature of the Gamer. Respectfully, do keep that in mind, Devs, versus squashing each new strat that doesn't meet the TAKP vision. (I'm fine with Rampage being gone, I think I only successfully pulled it off once or thrice on AK, anyways)

    (side note, just a few hours of browsing some of the TAKP changes since I had to take a break from TAKP for uni lead to me learning 3 new things about EQ. DECADES after the content was current! Ain't EQ grand!?)
     
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