Code: Torven * The SK Terror line of spells were doing twice the hate they should have been doing and this was corrected. * Disease counter hate was removed, and poison counter hate is now equal to that of the standard hate done by most non-damage detrimental spells. (which is a significant increase) * Enchanter Tash spells will now generally do more hate but sometimes less hate depending on the target. Robregen * Dying at level 60 will now give a 16% xp loss Haynar * Changed how NPC pet positions are updated while following their owner. This is an improvement to cpu and data rate usage. This also prevents a constant update of a pet position being sent out all the time while following. Database: Robregen * Great Divide: Coldain Ring 10: High Priest of Zek and Priest of Zek should now hold the hammer instead of the staff. * Item: fixed the name typo for Ranger's Omelet * Qeynos: Trumpy Irontoe should now drop the head 100% of the time.
slow agro does not feel right ... pretty much does zero agro now i can pull with slow, and one melee swing makes the tank get agro also another instance whereby nearby mob agrod the tank, all he had was proximity agro, hasn't started swinging at all i slowed the mob, and it was still on just proximity agro on the tank
Hate from slows was reduced by 25%. It'll do as much hate as a typical non-damaging detrimental spell now. I tested it before the patch and just checked it again. If it's doing 'zero' aggro, i.e. you can spam it and mobs don't turn, then you'll have to provide more information because I can't replicate the issue.
it's not doing "zero" agro, but just find it unusual that proximity agro > slow agro, and i can now effectively pull with slow and 250 range spell if you think it's working as intended then are most likely right
My anecdotal experience is that proxy aggro is larger than the hate from a single shadow vortex or clinging darkness, even from before this recent patch (depending on mob max hp). It takes 2 casts to peel aggro from someone that's done nothing but stand in melee range when we are clearing drakes in NToV, for example. Imo this is more an issue with proximity hate than it is with the recent spell hate changes. Hasn't "felt" right for a while compared to AK but I have no way to quantify it.
I have always thought prox aggro is too high here. It evens out a little bit at max levels, but still seems like it's WAY more than I remember.
Yea I think proxy aggro was likely a later Live change that occurred. But without old Al'Kabor code it's tough to prove.
The proximity bonus has been the same here for almost 3 years now. The last patch only modified counter hate; shadow vortex and clinging darkness were unaffected. A mob would need to have over 86k hitpoints for the bonus to be larger than a single non-damaging detrimental spell. The vast majority of trash in NToV have fewer hitpoints. I just tested this locally to make sure the server numbers were what they should be. One slow pulled off an ancient sky drake. (60k hp)
To clarify, I don't believe this patch has had any impact my observation. Prox hate being larger than a single shadow vortex has been consistent over the last 8+ months of NToV raids. Specifically, on flurry drakes as well as on drakes pap spawn during the Vulak event. This behavior is the one that doesn't "feel right" per memories from AK. But I don't have any empirical evidence, only anecdotal.
Just spit balling but could there be an issue with "first-to-aggro" hate modifier applying to every character's first spell cast, even if the mob was already aggro'd by another character? Just trying to see if I can trigger a eureka moment for you, Torven, since you likely have the most nuanced understanding of hate mechanics.
I do agree that mobs feel a bit too sticky. It's something I've been hesitant to mention because I've got no way of proving. One of my spitballing ideas was that maybe initial agro bonus didn't apply to mobs agro'ing via assisting another mob, which made it seem easier to peel adds off of a raid. Another thought was maybe there was some kind of cap on proximity agro back when we played, and they raised that cap as mobs got way more hp (and agro spells kept growing).
I just remember really sweating hard in early live to get Angry_Slowed_Mob_01 off of somebody. I had to snare, flame lick, and kick, taunt, etc. Now i just walk up and tap it a few times, maybe a flame lick if its really irritated, and bing its on me. Don't get me wrong, it's kind of handy for ease of play, but....it just doesn't seem to be like I remember. Maybe AK was different.
pulling agro on a mob while in proximity of it here doesn't feel off, at all, to me. I'm talking about pulling a mob off of someone from outside of proximity range, feels like they stick a little too much to the person in proximity.
That does make sense to me actually. Running up and turning attack on and swinging once will often turn the mob when multiple debuffs (that should have yanked it) before that from just outside of it's hit range didntd turn it to me. Always though that to be odd.
The melee range hate bonus was a concern I've had since I implemented it. I'm certainly willing to modify it if the evidence is strong. But you should know by now that I'm loathe to make modifications based on gut feelings. Capping proximity hate under 1200 (it is currently capped at 2250 if HP is high enough) has major consequences for healing on raid bosses. I noticed that guilds still see the need for midnight mallets. Well, you'll need a lot more if raid bosses bolt off your tank after one CH, which I assume is largely why this bonus scales this way in the first place. Consider that 1 CH can equal up to 1500 hate, which is more than two EB procs. Minor correction for my previous post: A NPC would need 95k hitpoints for the bonus to equal one spell, not 86k. This bonus is actually rather small for NPCs that aren't raid mobs or very low level. It would be around 500 hate for common level 60+ PoP junk and much smaller for typical dungeon NPCs. And one last thing: animals will virtually ignore the first cast you land on them. This is due to special AI for animals. (apparently some undead should also behave this way, but don't here)
Clerics ripping agro (mob would path over and kill them) is something I remember happening a lot, especially on stuff like AOW. My guild didn't utilize clicky agro until snare glands in luclin (i think midnight mallet was just not common knowledge back then). We started using weaponshield rangers to build agro and then the first warrior tank would ae taunt off of them, it kind of removed our need for clickies anyways. But as far as our early AoW attempts, I do remember how much we stressed that warriors had to ride the agro line in case one died, because he almost always ran into the cleric pile after a warrior death.
Yep, totally understand, Torven, I just wish I had something more useful to offer. I can't think of a research way to try and reconstruct numbers. I don't think Live is a valid example any more, but I'm not sure.
Right...I think that's what I am saying too, just looked at from a different angle. The reason is because THEY are in proximity, and they get stuck to because the prox aggro increase is too high. I should probably also add that if I am getting my chanter chewed on, and my ranger has just barely engaged, all I need to do is step back from the mob on my chanter and it instantly turns to the ranger. I guess that's really the part that feels off to me.
On TAKP, right now, if your clerics get to their second CHs in the rotation, your warrior would need to do 750 hate to keep the boss from bolting. Melee hate is base weapon damage + bonus, so if he doesn't proc, doing 750 hate before the second round of CHs could easily result in cleric aggro in my thought experiment, but probably not commonplace. Adjusting this downward significantly would, I imagine, result in clerics getting chewed without clickables rather often. You guys here bring small armies of clerics to your raids; use ogre tanks; use mallets like crazy; and have the best gear available. You're min/maxing like people who have played the game for 19 years. Try to consider what it would be like using gnome tanks who get bash stunned repeatedly in a short time because of ramp/flurry while not using BIS gear or clickables and with a 6 cleric rot. Have you guys done a single AoW without clickables? I played a barbarian warrior way back when. I rarely used clickables. I don't recall mallets being used at all actually. I'm sure Live has changed things. The question is what has changed and by how much? Hate per spell actually seems the same, and evidence suggests that the 1200 cap was as it is now. Some old notes/comments even mentioned specific hate values which are still the same. Sony can't change some of this stuff without ruining many years of content, so generally they tried to tack on new stuff only for later content instead of changing it all. e.g. healing hate cap changes at level 51+ instead of changing it for all levels.
ahhhhhhh yes that explains a lot in my example i was specifically pulling with slow on the animals in western wastes, and it was first initial cast that seemed to have been ignored if i slowed twice in a row, it behaved normally and took a lot more agro to pull it off the enc so you can disregard my comments
I remember a tactic used a bit was using DA after your first or second CH in rotation landed (once the mob was engaged). My main problem is that AoW is probably my only real memory of cleric agro being an issue because it was pre-luclin and there was no bloodfrenzies or anything. I don't know how much spell casting subtlety affected ch's or anything later on either, or if witness check fails on CH's prevented some of the agro
strongly agree on the lack of perspective of what the game was truly like back in the day the player skill level and game mechanics understanding these days is far different to the olden days, when we were all essentially idiots who knew nothing about the game except a few elite warriors across all the servers
I also share Marv's memories of clerics popping early DA's in CH rots and liberal use of weapon shield followed with AE taunt on many encounters, or even knight pre-aggro followed by AE taunt (e.g. On blob1 in VT). And lots of cleric and debuffer deaths if those tactics weren't employed. I never played a warrior, ranger, or cleric during raids though, so my recollection is coming from the perspective of a shadow knight offtank. Sorry for the derail on this thread lol.
I'm not sure I agree. The kinds of fussy engage tactics Jiz and Marv describe - clicky aggro, squeezing in DA on clerics, weaponshield transfers, chloroblast spam from hybrids to thin CH aggro - weren't necessary for many encounters, and we did just fine without them most of the time.
Before warriors had EB weapons, that's basically what I'm talking about. Best raid warriors were using SoD + epic, or 2 SoD's, most were using stuff like swiftblade of zek, jaelens, dagarn tail, primal etc paired with epic. You would see CH's ripping agro off of warriors somewhat often. Luclin really alleviated a big part of that with bloodfrenzy, snare glands, and AA's. If a guild had a bloodfrenzy, that was the lead-in warrior on tank rotations and it was never really an issue again. I just mentioned it because Torven theorized it would have been happening if there was a lower cap on proximity hate, and I remembered it happening. I really can't prove anything with this - no logs or videos. My gut feeling is just that proximity agro is a bit too high.
Just did a quick test. Took a 60 non-ogre war, gave him a swiftblade + primal, 200% haste. Had him attack the AoW. Took 2 minutes 35 seconds to reach 10k hate. (with bonus added) It took 16 seconds to reach 3k hate. If a second CH from the first cleric hit before then, the boss could have left the warrior. (assuming 1500 hate heals + succeeding witness checks) I was bash stunned twice in this time. It took 45 seconds to reach 4500 hate. (only one more additional stun in that time) At this point, if the first cleric healed a third time in 45 seconds, the boss could have bolted/summoned. It took 73 seconds to reach 6000 hate. One question I have is, should defensive disc reduce hate per swing? Because it's not currently. From thinking about this, what matters most is probably the number of clerics in the rotation. If you've got 10 or more clerics, then they're not gonna pull aggro.
