Haste and low delay question...

Discussion in 'General Discussion' started by Yinn Yang, Oct 15, 2015.

  1. Yinn Yang

    Yinn Yang People Like Me

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    Okay, I know I should probably know the answer to this old-school question, but my mind isn't what it used to be :p I'm sure I've read/heard the answer before but, I know that there is a "bottom" or "floor" to what weapon delay can be and that also ties into the haste equation, but how low can the delay (on a 2hb for example) be and still get benefit from an added haste item?

    Worded differently, if you were using an 8/20 weapon (20 delay) and wore a 21% haste item, would you actually benefit at all? Seems I heard 20 was the bottom of the range. But, I also recall (and I'm sure this will come up) the Moss Covered Twig phenomenon... ultra-low delay making a seemingly acceptable dmg/delay ratio actually be quite overpowered.

    Bottom line to this question is (although I'd love to hear any other theories about this subject): if I have a 17% haste item, an 8/20 2hb and a 9/24 2hb; am I better off using the higher delay because of some sort of "floor" on delay which allows my haste to benefit me only with the 24 delay? Does that make sense? Is 20 delay too low to benefit from a worn haste item?
     
    Last edited: Oct 15, 2015
  2. robregen

    robregen Administrator Staff Member

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  3. Lenas

    Lenas I Feel Loved

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    All items are impacted by haste equally, but the lower the original delay is, the less of an impact you're going to see. I imagine there is some kind of minimum delay for weapons, but you would be hard-pressed to get anything that low even with all the haste you could get.
     
  4. Elrontaur

    Elrontaur People Like Me

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    IIRC, there was a rule that no weapon could get less than a 10 delay no matter how much haste was involved. So until you get enough haste to lower your weapon attack delay to 10, any haste will be beneficial.
     
  5. Yinn Yang

    Yinn Yang People Like Me

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    That number would make sense, based on all the controversy over the Moss Covered Twig (with its 10 delay). It does make me wonder about the higher end game (raiding in Velious and beyond especially). I never took this into account in my Velious/PoP raiding days on AK, but with the possibility of haste item/haste song/haste spell on you during a raid (more than likely 100%+), it is feasible that a melee class could benefit more from using a higher delay weapon (assuming a similar ratio) to increase his DPS... in an odd sort of way. A good example would be a 10/18 weapon (1.80 ratio) vs. a 12/22 (1.83 ratio) weapon: the 10/18 weapon might effectively become a 10/10 weapon (1.00 ratio), whereas a 12/22 weapon could become a 12/11 weapon (0.91 ratio). I realize my math might be a bit off, and the difference is negligible in that example... but you get the idea.
     
  6. Ravenwing

    Ravenwing I Feel Loved

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    I don't believe hasted delay was hardcapped at 10. If it were, many players using highend one-handers would have seen zero DPS gain with Rizlona's (bard overhaste song), and that was not the case.

    Al'Kabor-era EQ did suffer from a haste rounding bug, which made some delay-haste percentage combinations arbitrarily better than others. Here are some numbers based on a moderately-post-AK-era PC-side parse, which Delorne copied over to the Tem forums:

    Cromis extended the table downward to the lower delay values, but I believe his numbers are theoretical and not based on actual observation:

     
    Last edited: Oct 15, 2015
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  7. Yinn Yang

    Yinn Yang People Like Me

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    Great info RW, thanks much!
     
  8. Mithryn

    Mithryn Member

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    Sorry to bring up an old thread, but I wasn't very clear on whether or not hasted delay can go below 10?

    Ie: if I use my revultant whip (14 delay) with 100% haste, does delay become hard capped at 10 or does it become 7?
     
  9. JerimShadowreaver

    JerimShadowreaver Active Member

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    There isn't much that I would claim to be certain of, however this question I know the answer to. On live, "real" EQ the delay floor was indeed 10. I remember this question being asked a number of times and the answer was always the same from the devs online. Moss Covered Twig was an item that often brought this question into play. However, TAKP is TAKP and whatever the devs decide to do here is up to them. If you want to know what the "real" EQ delay floor was, it was 10. Haste would work until that point and after which no benefit would be gained.
     
  10. Devour_Souls

    Devour_Souls People Like Me

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    It was not.
     
  11. JerimShadowreaver

    JerimShadowreaver Active Member

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    guess we just remember this differently /shrug
     
  12. Mokli

    Mokli I Feel Loved

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    We actually had this debate in NAG discord a while ago, I think the consensus was that on dev server there seems to be a floor of 10 with the fastest weapons/max haste. Whether this is hard-coded that way or a function of server/client timing is unknown.
    @Walex , @Yinikren
     
  13. Palarran

    Palarran Well-Known Member

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    Live never had a minimum delay of 10. This is a persistent myth that comes from log timestamps having a resolution of 1 second; naive parsing appears to suggest a minimum delay of 1 second based on this.
    If the TAKP server enforces a minimum delay of 1 second, then that is incorrect behavior.
     
  14. Torven

    Torven I Feel Loved

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    It's 400 miliseconds
     
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  15. Mokli

    Mokli I Feel Loved

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    How could you know if the main way to figure stuff like this out is to parse logs? I suppose an SOE dev mentioned it somewhere?
     
  16. Devour_Souls

    Devour_Souls People Like Me

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  17. Yinikren

    Yinikren Well-Known Member

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    Correct, the delay is not locked at 10 on the server. Otherwise, weapons like the GM uber sword on dev (1 delay) would be swinging once per second, which isn't the case.

    Delay can go below 10 and, with very few exceptions, dps increases noticeably for doing so (especially on high-ac mobs).
     
  18. Auyster

    Auyster People Like Me

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    Torven says 400ms. Also, my personal tests have put it below 800ms so I am willing to believe Torven on this number. Also 1000ms minimum delay was never a thing. It makes absolutely no sense with most DPS weapons be 20 delay or less and along with the fact overhaste went to 25% in Luclin which would've made bards redundant.
     
  19. Tryfan

    Tryfan People Like Me

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    However, one thing is even more clear - EQ Live devs often had absolutely no clue what they were talking about if it wasn't directly related to what they were doing, and frankly I'm not sure it was even 100% even when it WAS directly related to what they were doing.

    The degree to which they understood (in 1999 at least) the mathematics behind their own systems was... unimpressive. The examples are all over the place.

    It definitely got better later, though.
     
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