Regarding the kiting of large numbers of NPCs

Discussion in 'General Discussion' started by Torven, Dec 1, 2018.

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  1. Quath

    Quath Member

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    Give'm hell Nukem! Miss you pal!
     
  2. pharmakos

    pharmakos People Like Me

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    Last edited: Dec 5, 2018
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  3. Sketchy

    Sketchy People Like Me

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    yah weirdly enough I did enjoy the few VT crawls we did at the start. They were a real challenge, and very hectic at times. Glad we don't do them every time, but fun for the first few times.
     
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  4. Torven

    Torven I Feel Loved

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    Why are we implementing kite limits? Read what AK was really like. Let this jog your memories:

    Re: Bard Swarming

    [Wed Oct 09 19:51:42 2013] Inglorion tells alliance:1, 'swarm kiting doesn't work too well on this server. You're best off with charm kiting and then chanting them to death'
    [Wed Oct 09 19:52:34 2013] Krahl tells alliance:1, '<-- Ignorant and curious. Why doesn't swarming work well?'
    [Wed Oct 09 19:52:54 2013] Inglorion tells alliance:1, 'In my experience i have found that this server is full of pathing glitches'
    [Wed Oct 09 19:53:08 2013] Klaws tells alliance:1, 'circling here causes mobs to warp ontop of you if the circle is to tight'
    [Wed Oct 09 19:53:16 2013] Laugher tells alliance:1, 'the radius that the spells hit is not that big'
    [Wed Oct 09 19:53:19 2013] Klaws tells alliance:1, 'ae swarming requires very tight circling'

    [Mon Dec 18 18:10:56 2006] Bayle tells the guild, 'damn first perfect pull at the hobgoblin camp and i run into a tree and the pack cathes me'
    [Mon Dec 18 18:10:56 2006] Bayle tells the guild, 'catches'
    [Mon Dec 18 18:10:56 2006] Bayle tells the guild, 'there is a camp of 10 that has one scourge in it that does but i highsun it and fade'
    [Mon Dec 18 18:10:56 2006] Bayle tells the guild, 'pathing there is so bad too, so i have'
    [Mon Dec 18 18:10:56 2006] Bayle tells the guild, 'to drag them to the hedge zone out'
    [Mon Dec 18 18:10:56 2006] Bayle tells the guild, 'and kite them there'
    [Mon Dec 18 18:10:56 2006] Bayle tells the guild, 'i can do about 1AA an hour there once i get good at the camp, plus diamond drops, nightmare iron, vendor trash, tainted planar essense, hobgoblin meat, etc'

    [Mon Dec 18 18:10:57 2006] Bayle tells the guild, 'this camps pathing is so damn horrible'
    [Mon Dec 18 18:10:57 2006] Bayle tells the guild, 'out of 10 mobs minues the 2 i highsunned, only 3 made it with me'
    [Mon Dec 18 18:10:57 2006] Bayle tells the guild, 'asd;ohkasouiipsb'ea'
    [Mon Dec 18 18:10:57 2006] Bayle tells the guild, 'im about to throw my computer through the window'
    [Mon Dec 18 18:10:57 2006] Bayle tells the guild, 'im so frustrated with this camp'
    [Mon Dec 18 18:10:57 2006] Bayle tells the guild, 'the pathing is so bad in a wide open space, the mobs warp all the time, and if i outrun them a tiny bit they turn around and run back, its so stupid'
    [Mon Dec 18 18:10:57 2006] Monkenstab tells the guild, 'yeah'
    [Mon Dec 18 18:10:57 2006] Bayle tells the guild, 'but its pretty good xp if i can figure it out'
    [Mon Dec 18 18:10:57 2006] Bayle tells the guild, '3% per kill is about 25-30% per camp'
    [Mon Dec 18 18:10:57 2006] Bayle tells the guild, 'god thats so frustrating, i picked up the nightstalker camp in 15 in'
    [Mon Dec 18 18:10:57 2006] Bayle tells the guild, 'min'
    [Mon Dec 18 18:10:57 2006] Rheyn tells the guild, 'hobs can be difficult'
    [Mon Dec 18 18:10:57 2006] Bayle tells the guild, '90% is pathing problems'
    [Mon Dec 18 18:10:57 2006] Bayle tells the guild, 'hand down, if i didnt have to drag the stupid mobs halfway across the zone it would be easier, but you have to see the way they path just to beileve it'
    [Mon Dec 18 18:10:57 2006] Caern tells the guild, 'I know... if you have ever dealt with pathing charmed pets you know how screwed the pathing is in some areas'
    [Mon Dec 18 18:10:57 2006] Bayle tells the guild, 'thats why i cant charm kite in AC'
    [Mon Dec 18 18:10:57 2006] Caern tells the guild, 'We have more peoblems here than I ever saw on PC side... must have to do with the port'
    [Mon Dec 18 18:10:57 2006] Bayle tells the guild, 'if i didnt think they would just shut down the server i would say we should all boycott the game until the fix the problems'

    [Sun Mar 4 14:34:06 2007] Corpus tells the guild, 'where's a good place for you to swarm with a tag along? :p'
    [Sun Mar 4 14:34:06 2007] Bayle tells the guild, 'PC'
    [Sun Mar 4 14:34:07 2007] Bayle tells the guild, 'no, i meant a PC server'
    [Sun Mar 4 14:34:07 2007] Corpus tells the guild, 'lol'
    [Sun Mar 4 14:34:07 2007] Bayle tells the guild, 'i can do like 15-20 mobs in HoH at a time but i always get tagged and killed around 40%'
    [Sun Mar 4 14:34:07 2007] Bayle tells the guild, 'probably because of a warp or something'
    [Sun Mar 4 14:34:07 2007] Deths tells the guild, 'Pathing is stupid there'
    [Sun Mar 4 14:34:07 2007] Bayle tells the guild, 'i cant think of anywhere else to do it'

    [Sat Dec 6 15:16:01 2008] Rancar tells alliance:3, 'I'm hoping my AE kiting skills are still up to snuff and I can level up fairly easily'
    [Sat Dec 6 15:16:19 2008] Asher tells alliance:3, 'didnt' take me long to swarm to 65'
    [Sat Dec 6 15:17:19 2008] Rancar tells alliance:3, 'I'm not looking forward to camping that kunark invis ring for swarm kiting again'
    [Sat Dec 6 15:17:20 2008] Tollen tells alliance:3, 'GL with that, iv tryed and not much luke with AE kiting here... pathing or lag seem to mess it up'

    [Sat Apr 21 19:40:22 2012] Elecast tells alliance:2, 'just dont try aoe kiting, wierd lag bug, mobs warp to you stun and its over.'

    [Tue Jun 25 21:25:12 2013] Auluvas tells alliance:1, 'While im ae kiting is it normal for mobs to warp right to me? They seem to warp at a diagonal. Only tried in overthere though'

    Re: Zones

    [Sat May 8 00:37:00 2004] Kobash pierces a tribal gatherer for 16 points of damage.
    [Sat May 8 00:37:00 2004] You tell your party, 'pathing is terrible'
    [Sat May 8 00:37:22 2004] Jacoppo tells the group, 'Many pathing errors'

    [Mon May 10 15:29:20 2004] A sonic wolf hits Tigertugger`s warder for 22 points of damage.
    [Mon May 10 15:29:23 2004] You tell your party, 'pathing is so bad, that to get back to me, she has t walk away first'

    [Sun Aug 29 18:00:42 2004] a small mushroom begins to cast a spell.
    [Sun Aug 29 18:00:44 2004] You tell your party, 'odd pathing here'

    [Sun Dec 5 01:19:47 2004] Manlee tells the group, 'pulling A Dark Assassin'
    [Sun Dec 5 01:19:48 2004] Greybeard tells the group, 'they mostly not follow, there is a weid pathing here'

    [Fri Feb 18 18:23:31 2005] There are 8 players in The Umbral Plains.
    [Fri Feb 18 18:23:35 2005] Lyrad tells the group, 'oddpathing'

    [Sun Jan 27 14:53:41 2013] Bothias tells temerity:2, 'Protip: AR pathing is completely and utterly fucked. Do not attempt without a tank'
    [Sun Jan 27 15:00:15 2013] Bothias tells temerity:2, 'lol, AR pathing... stuff is just warping and popping around'
    [Sun Jan 27 15:08:03 2013] Bothias tells temerity:2, 'this pathing is so bad, it's impressive'

    [Wed Sep 11 20:48:00 2013] Snookiee tells temerity:2, 'torrid are you aoeing in skyfire?'
    [Wed Sep 11 20:48:27 2013] Torrin tells temerity:2, 'just started trying yes'
    [Wed Sep 11 20:48:32 2013] Torrin tells temerity:2, 'I need a magician spell'
    [Wed Sep 11 20:48:48 2013] Torrin tells temerity:2, 'oh god'
    [Wed Sep 11 20:48:52 2013] Torrin tells temerity:2, 'not sure this will work'
    [Wed Sep 11 20:49:07 2013] Snookiee tells temerity:2, 'the chromadracs are a huge pain in the twat with the dispells'
    [Wed Sep 11 20:49:09 2013] Torrin tells temerity:2, 'mobs love to run the opposite direction'
    [Wed Sep 11 20:49:28 2013] Darchon tells temerity:2, 'pathing is stupid, they lose aggro with distance easily and they dispell'
    [Wed Sep 11 20:49:31 2013] Darchon tells temerity:2, 'skyfire blows'
    [Wed Sep 11 20:49:52 2013] Torrin tells temerity:2, 'I miss p99 pathing'

    [Sat Jan 27 13:07:53 2007] Zorblak tells the guild, 'PoP zones have the worst pathing. :-('

    [Thu Sep 16 22:11:43 2004] Tigertugger`s warder bites a crystalline devourer for 37 points of damage.
    [Thu Sep 16 22:11:44 2004] You tell your party, 'The Pet pathing here is surprisingly good' <---- indicating that Valor was atypical

    [Sun Jun 09 13:56:05 2013] Kawhn tells alliance:1, 'problem with PoJ is all the buggy pulling. Mobs warping. etc '

    [Fri Oct 18 22:46:20 2013] Destroya tells alliance:1, 'I always loved the randomly warping mobs in tactics'

    [Thu Feb 1 13:52:11 2007] Fenneddar tells the guild, 'fuck pathing in hoh'
    [Thu Feb 1 13:52:11 2007] Fenneddar tells the guild, 'instead of running to me, this gaurd ran outside, agrod the 3 dogs, and 8 other gaurds'
    [Thu Feb 1 13:52:11 2007] Fenneddar tells the guild, 'i cant beleive that I was 2 feet next to him and he ran outside the freaking building'

    [Fri Aug 23 04:10:40 2013] You tell temerity:2, 'you have no idea how disappointed I saw that HoH on this server has atrocious pathing'
    [Fri Aug 23 04:10:49 2013] Juice tells temerity:2, 'yeah its hideous here'
    [Fri Aug 23 04:10:58 2013] Juice tells temerity:2, 'cod has some bad pathing too'
    [Fri Aug 23 04:11:36 2013] You tell temerity:2, 'I assume they fixed it shortly after PoP was released? I dont see how bards could have kited in there at all'
    [Fri Aug 23 04:12:06 2013] You tell temerity:2, 'I pulled of some miracles to get a 35 mob pull to the graveyard though, but I usually didnt get nearly as many'
    [Fri Aug 23 06:29:53 2013] Darchon tells alliance:1, 'CoD does require some level of competency pulling though, cause pathing and targetting in there is annoying'
    [Fri Aug 23 07:21:09 2013] You tell temerity:2, 'you really need an area of pathing that essentially has no pathing and mobs just run directly at you'
    [Fri Aug 23 07:22:11 2013] You tell temerity:2, 'I really, really wish pathing in HoH was better here'
    [Fri Aug 23 07:22:48 2013] You tell temerity:2, 'still managed a 35 mob pull there but usually its far less'

    Regarding HoH: Sony fixed pathing there mid-PoP, allowing bards to swarm large kites, resulting in massive experience gains. They in short order put in a warp-home mechanic to limit pulls to 10 there to stop this, which still exists on Live. Also, pulling 80+ NPCs on Live will still to this day cause the pulls to lag/rubberband.

    [Mon Oct 14 18:49:21 2013] Sirona tells the guild, 'Zaxisius kited like the entire zone around t he top of the pit lol'
    [Mon Oct 14 18:49:45 2013] You say to your guild, 'so how did you fail RZ then while he did that'
    [Mon Oct 14 18:50:57 2013] You say to your guild, 'I kited a lot of mobs just trying to PBAoE them or take Glykus to safe room. what happens is mobs end up spread out all over the place due to pathing, and eventually some become unavoidable. dunno how he managed it'

    Re: General Pathing/Warping

    [Fri Oct 18 20:06:32 2013] Layonhands tells alliance:1, 'EQmac has one of the worth pathing ever'

    [Mon Dec 24 01:10:50 2012] Masuriya tells alliance:1, 'pathing on this server is...interesting'

    [Mon Jan 14 19:19:53 2013] Mhantanza tells alliance:1, 'WTB New pathing for eqmac'

    [Sun Dec 5 01:51:10 2004] Greybeard tells the group, 'pathing, at a certain distance server "teleport" the mops to u,. I use that trick to safepull Freenzied Ghuls in LGuk '

    [Wed Jun 2 21:23:24 2004] Flankar says out of character, 'Strange pathing here almost like fear kiting )'

    [Wed Oct 02 21:14:13 2013] Sirona tells the guild, 'you seen AK pathing bro?'

    PoValor Shakerpage

    [Thu May 09 14:10:45 2013] Elesar tells _:3, 'fiends will be a good addition'
    [Thu May 09 14:10:49 2013] Elesar tells _:3, 'just not the bottom castle'
    [Thu May 09 14:11:31 2013] Nunes tells _:3, 'they are more warpy than the humanss'

    [Wed Jun 26 19:05:04 2013] Elesar tells _:3, 'ill page'
    [Wed Jun 26 19:15:01 2013] Elesar tells _:3, 'mid kite '
    [Wed Jun 26 19:15:02 2013] Elesar tells _:3, 'i cant'
    [Wed Jun 26 19:24:38 2013] You tell _:3, 'mobs kept warping on me'
    [Wed Jun 26 19:24:43 2013] You tell _:3, 'so i said fuck it im bringing it in lol'
    [Wed Jun 26 19:25:12 2013] You tell _:3, 'we crashed valor'
    [Wed Jun 26 19:25:13 2013] You tell _:3, 'afk'
    [Wed Jun 26 19:25:47 2013] Aorni tells _:3, 'in b4 eqmac rant lolol'
    [Wed Jun 26 19:25:54 2013] Littlejon tells alliance:1, 'who the hell just broke PoV!?'
    [Wed Jun 26 19:26:06 2013] You tell _:3, 'lol @ alliance'

    [Mon Jul 08 11:37:17 2013] Smudged tells you, 'guy i saw doing shaker pulls used to get warped on a killed a lot'
    [Mon Jul 08 11:37:37 2013] You told Smudged, 'The start of the pull = warp city'
    [Mon Jul 08 11:37:40 2013] You told Smudged, 'unless done properly'
    [Mon Jul 08 11:37:43 2013] You told Smudged, 'and thats the hard part'
    [Mon Jul 08 11:46:49 2013] You told Smudged, 'if u dont hold their hands they ll warp on you and shit'
    [Mon Jul 08 11:50:47 2013] Smudged tells you, 'so you don't normally get the valorian camp in the bottom area?'
    [Mon Jul 08 11:51:05 2013] You told Smudged, 'the bottom of castle - no '
    [Mon Jul 08 11:51:09 2013] You told Smudged, 'not worth the risk getting em imo'
    [Mon Jul 08 11:51:13 2013] You told Smudged, 'cuz of mobs warping and shit'
    [Mon Jul 08 11:54:54 2013] Smudged tells you, 'so its like quad kiting but with a massive number of mobs =)'
    [Mon Jul 08 11:54:58 2013] You told Smudged, 'yeah'
    [Mon Jul 08 11:55:02 2013] You told Smudged, 'it gets pretty laggy and shit'
    [Mon Jul 08 11:55:10 2013] You told Smudged, 'server lag not client lag'
    [Mon Jul 08 12:06:01 2013] Smudged tells you, 'so doing this on a PC will LD you ever time right?'
    [Mon Jul 08 12:06:16 2013] You told Smudged, 'ya'
    [Mon Jul 08 12:08:46 2013] You told Smudged, 'you'll LD on mac too once u hit rampage'
    [Mon Jul 08 12:09:10 2013] You told Smudged, 'Whoever your pulling with, the least amount of characters the better'
    [Mon Jul 08 12:09:18 2013] Smudged tells you, 'i noticed most people just /q the shaman after dueling the warrior'

    Re: TVX

    [Thu May 16 21:05:17 2013] Dorsia tells _:2, 'What do you think about TVX adds being CC'd "legit' with a bard kiting around in the CY?'
    [Thu May 16 21:05:21 2013] Dorsia tells _:2, 'Doable or no'
    [Thu May 16 21:05:45 2013] You tell _:2, 'pathing there is fucking horrible.. id be surprised it i was pulled off'
    [Thu May 16 21:06:02 2013] Dorsia tells _:2, 'Horrible pathing can be conducive to semi-afk kiting'
    [Thu May 16 21:06:22 2013] Dorsia tells _:2, 'auto run back and forth across CY would be easy to maintain'
    [Thu May 16 21:06:35 2013] Slay tells _:2, 'i tried with'
    [Thu May 16 21:06:44 2013] Slay tells _:2, 'robaire / jazper'
    [Thu May 16 21:06:49 2013] Slay tells _:2, 'the bard kiting thing'
    [Thu May 16 21:06:56 2013] Slay tells _:2, 'it didnt work out TLDR'

    Also regarding TVX: I found zero cases of people not clearing to him in logs, even as late as a Aug 2013 Destiny raid. Some of you know damn well it wasn't possible or was at least quite difficult. It wasn't from lack of trying, since I find bards abusing unlimited range, no-LoS bellow to pull VT mobs and plenty of talk about exploiting TVX with getting mobs stuck, even while there was concern for being inspected and getting caught wearing TVX loot as the exploiting was common knowledge.
     
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  5. showstring

    showstring I Feel Loved

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    well this game sure is about to become more "fun"
     
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  6. Faults

    Faults I Feel Loved

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    Why are chat logs sufficient evidence for something like ae kiting - but the lack of (just an example) flee stun mentioned there or I guess most places isn't enough to convince you that its too high for AK - even if its accurate to live.
     
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  7. Mokli

    Mokli I Feel Loved

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    Sounds like pathing issues were a bug on AK that needed to be fixed and so now some custom content is going in since broken pathing won't be put in for these zones. I guess I don't see the big deal with this whole thing or the effort that is being chosen to be put into it compared to other areas.

    But yes, I agree with Faults, some comments aren't exactly evidence anymore than a random Allakhazam comments are (that have been discounted) for other issues in the past.
     
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  8. Bragon

    Bragon People Like Me

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    Why are chat logs used at all? I thought all chat, especially guild and private channels were stripped from the provided logs. Also /tells?
     
    Last edited: Dec 10, 2018
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  9. Cadsuane

    Cadsuane People Like Me

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    people have to choose whether they run their log through the name stripper before sending it in. (Maybe that's why some show the Underscore _ instead of a name for chat?)
    I can understand how chat logs of mechanics discussion could be very useful, especially for mechanics that would be almost impossible to see what's happening from a chat-less log (like, agro 5, but only 3 came due to path bugs, not in range nor hitting for the log to record; or things stuck in geometry / warping )
     
  10. Darchon

    Darchon I Feel Loved

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    I definitely recall being told to not bother trying to swarm kite on AK due to pathing.

    I actually tried it on TAKP in ME months ago and found that I was able to autocircle and land DoTs but randomly one of them would cut inside the circle, flee stun, and instantly kill me so I figured it was working similar to AK with regard to solo bard swarming.

    As for the 2006 comments about charm kiting the werewolves in PoN, I don’t recall experiencing those issues he talks about. It was a solid camp in my experience on AK. Possibly one of the things Hobart fixed later on?

    As for TVXs, for most guilds on AK the loot would’ve been rot loot in PoP, I don’t think anyone really bothered with them unless they were trying to low-man box them, and in these scenarios I’d hear whispers of roof exploits, which I understand why 3-4 people would try to use these due to low manpower.

    For our TVX experience on TAKP so far we crawled to the first one to acquire a key and then crawled to Blob1 later that night, this took probably 2 hours from entrance to TVX death?

    After that we have been using about 2-3 bards, 3 SKs, a rogue and a Mage to manage to pull the TVXs out. It’s not exactly a solo bard managing to do the whole thing by themselves. Also basically everyone who has done these roles has died at some point in time due to one thing or another.

    Generally speaking, I do the main bard kite role here. I have noticed this reset that the recent pathing changes have caused mobs to double back a bit more which makes the kite more dangerous than it was in the past because they are getting stuck in the fountain and then getting range to land a few Lure Nukes, when normally you can just keep out of range of the main pack if you pay attention for the entire 30~ minute kite.

    I welcome a challenge, if you want to make it harder that’s fine. As always I favor AKuracy, if you want to say it’s too easy here I’d be glad to mess around with new ways to attempt it on TAKP after changes go in. I just hope the changes allow attempts be made to try to pull them out.
     
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  11. Faults

    Faults I Feel Loved

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    I mean swarm kiting with charm and a goblin ring/invis item was definitely doable.
     
  12. Yarnee

    Yarnee People Like Me

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    I dont understand the logic of fixing things and not fixing things on TAKP
     
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  13. Yarnee

    Yarnee People Like Me

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    I got my ME shard on AK from jazper kiting the entire zone
     
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  14. Slayzz

    Slayzz People Like Me

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    343
    It seems more and more we are losing a solid footing on what this server is about or not about. There seems to be a huge lack of consistency as to the reason things are either left in game or removed. Sometimes bugs are fixed/removed because “we are AK with bug fixes.” Then other times bugs are purposely left in or in this case... ACTUALLY CREATED because “we are trying to replicate AK.”

    At certain times, chat logs or Zam posts of people’s opinions are enough evidence, other times they are not.

    It’s not the end of the world if swarm kiting massive groups of mobs is removed. However the reasoning behind it is what is concerning. And it’s becoming more and more common. You guys fix pathing issues all the time. Pathing issues that when fixed are a clear improvement to the game. But here you now aim to CREATE a limitation on something to imitate bad pathing or server “lag”... yes that’s what we’re doing here.

    People in those logs are complaining about poor game mechanics, lag and bad pathing.... and THATS what’s being used to back your point and attempting to recreate???

    For a server with bug fixes and improvements to gameplay that just makes no logical sense to me.

    I’m sure I’m not the only one, but my big question would be... What criteria do you use when determining what bugs should be FIXED vs which ones should be LEFT IN? Because to me at least it seems completely arbitrary.

    As far as TVXs go, not sure what the plan is but again, if legit game mechanics are being followed then I’m not sure I understand the problem here.... just because something wasn’t done before, doesn’t mean it wasn’t possible or a new strat wasn’t discovered and if all game mechanics are in place and no rules are being violated then I’m lost on the issue? I’m sure TVX isn’t the only Mob a new strat was used on here on this server.

    I know we all play on your server, and are all super appreciative for all the hard work you guys have put into this thing but I am just continually finding myself lost as to the reason things are done.
     
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  15. Devour_Souls

    Devour_Souls People Like Me

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    This is spot on bro. I remember trying to do this on AK in 2008 or 2009, like it was yesterday. DC spent the better part of two days trying to kite that shit out into the CY instead of clearing, with half the raid screaming, "Let's just kill it all", while Karpan insisted that kiting that stuff out was a better idea. I'm really surprised this whole deal isn't in Fanglore's or Zamiel's logs. We basically spent two days of raiding rezzing bards.
     
    Last edited: Dec 10, 2018
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  16. Slayzz

    Slayzz People Like Me

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    And since we’re using chat logs as evidence of what we should do... we should activate the shakerpaging they’re referring too then. We’re trying to recreate AK aren’t we?
     
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  17. Slayzz

    Slayzz People Like Me

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    And to be clear I knew the swarm kiting changes were coming. That was already a forgone conclusion and made clear many posts ago. I guess I’m just surprised at the evidence being used and the underlying reason (replicate the results of poor pathing and lag) behind the change. And how the underlying reasons for fixes for the server in general (bug fix or leave bug in to replicate AK) seems to change from one bug to another.
     
    Last edited: Dec 10, 2018
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  18. Yarnee

    Yarnee People Like Me

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    Destiny never did TVX, only DC did. I wore a ssra bracer even in Elementals on my main SK for this reason. Fanglore had umbra bracer, Yarnee did not. Doze was permafarmed so Silver Charm was out of the question. These changes are only going to result in people not experiencing content. I do remember people kiting large numbers of mobs in ME, PoV, etc.
     
  19. Pithy

    Pithy I Feel Loved

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    On the topic of TVXs, I think many folks' motivation to learn legitimate zonepull methods was limited by the fact that Zamiel et al. farmed the TVXs so often and easily using geometry exploits. FWIW, though, Zygor and I did manage a legitimate zonepull once or twice. It was possible, but we felt it was more trouble than it was worth. I can post my fuzzy ancient memories of the difficulties we encountered, if the devs want.
     
    Last edited: Dec 10, 2018
  20. necra

    necra People Like Me

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    Experiencing content = sitting at raid while a mob is pulled from a train?
     
  21. Sketchy

    Sketchy People Like Me

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    I don't know if there is a way to do this Torven, but I think it would go a long way in protecting the privacy of the people involved in the conversations if their names were scrambled, or removed in some way. Especially in private channels, such as temerity2, or others. Maybe people had that option when they submitted the logs and didn't realize their conversations would be publicly posted here. I know you have a lot of work on your plate, so this is a minor request. I am sure there is some sort of tool that can do that, but I am not much of a computer guy.

    I agree that comments from alliance are like comments from Allas, very high noise to signal ration, except for maybe Darchon. Thanks again for trying to figure this mess out.
     
  22. Darchon

    Darchon I Feel Loved

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    Depends on the zone!

    In Ssra, people crawl to raid mobs because they’re all permarooted except Emp and Cursed.

    In Tower of Sol Ro we crawled to every single mini boss because they are limited to their separate wings and the flags require you click out after they’re slain.

    In PoFire, we split every single mini from the field or castle or fire island. No one was fighting Quavonis on his tiny fire island with that AE Shadowstep. Nor were people clearing every trash mob to get to Pyronis or Magmaton, there was no need to when a single bard could isolate them fairly easily.

    I wouldn’t say that the contrast between Tower of Sol Ro and Plane of Fire led me to feel like I experienced the raid content of the former more than I did that of the later zone.

    But personally I’ve been a part of the bard pull team for most of these raids so perhaps I don’t have an unbiased view of this and the raiders sitting in camp waiting patiently for mobs to arrive feel differently.
     
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  23. Sketchy

    Sketchy People Like Me

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    It's about the same amount of tedious content crawling through VT. You have done VT crawls before right? This zone pulling is for a few select mobs, and it takes some significant skill and coordination to pull off. Bind sight makes the whole thing a lot more fun for the camp crew.
     
  24. Pithy

    Pithy I Feel Loved

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    'AKuracy vs. balance' debates are as old as this server. If these decisions feel a bit arbitrary or inconsistent, I imagine it's because they come from a process of consensus-building within the dev team, often with community input. The composition of the active dev team changes over time, as devs get excited or drift away. I imagine individual devs' views on these issues evolve, too, and vary from case to case. Community views also change.

    In this case, though, the question isn't really AKuracy vs. balance. Massive zone kites are inAKurate; lots of logs and videos show this. Once PoP drops, they'll also be wildly imbalanced. ME exp is a tiny blip compared to what would be possible in Valor, Honor or Fire with current TAKP mechanics. Think dozens of AA per hour in a full group.
     
  25. Sketchy

    Sketchy People Like Me

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    yup Pithy I have been here since almost the beginning, and these conversations will always flare up over different issues. As long as people keep things in good faith and are respectful, I see them as a beneficial thing. It also allows us nerds to REALLY talk EQ.
     
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  26. Slayzz

    Slayzz People Like Me

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    343
    I’d say depends like darchon said. Depending mostly on how long you are sitting waiting. If it’s anything like those old Aary attempts and waiting at ToV zone in then no lmao.. still have bad memories from that ha.

    But generally if the pulls are coming without too much waiting then for sure.
     
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  27. Slayzz

    Slayzz People Like Me

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    For sure. And I agree with you. And maybe I’m searching for the holy grail of answers when it doesn’t and never will exist. I guess I just wish there was a consistent theme for why bugs are fixed or not. That’s all. The decision to prevent kiting hundreds of mobs doesn’t bother me just wish it was consistent with other bug fix/keep decisions. Can’t have it all I guess lol
     
  28. necra

    necra People Like Me

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    Lol I’ve never had so many quotes in my life.

    I think the whole thing is tovern/devs didn’t like skipping of trash through clever kiting strats on top of the coth bits we all will use when we are in vt.

    Now it’s their server that we are all lucky enough to play on, they are backing up their stance with evidence through chat that as we all know ak pathing was buggy as hell and barring some flukes form time to time it was simply impossible there.

    They are putting stuff in place to prevent that method.

    The ball is in our court now we decide is the mob worth the trash clear to kill? If so he will die often, if not he won’t be.

    If it’s not worth the clear don’t complain about the Uber loot that is missed out on and the content being missed.
     
  29. showstring

    showstring I Feel Loved

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    3,332
    Intentional bug reproductions:
    pathing/swarming limits = trade for SK mental corruption bug?

    Out of era balance fixes:
    divine aura agro dump = trade for monk AC?
     
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  30. Torven

    Torven I Feel Loved

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    I found flee stuns in AK logs. The best example I found was being flee stunned in my logs where I was pulling large numbers of green cons for trade skill mats, at a similar rate to Live. I mentioned this previously but for some reason your brains seem to gloss over my evidence and you jump to conclusions. Mobs in The Deep also had poison resist on AK and that was not made up, FYI. The number of intentional deviations from AK are fairly minimal.

    I request that people keep their chat if they aren't modest, because chat is a good source of evidence. Some of those logs are mine.

    I underscored it myself. Frankly I don't see much of an issue with what was pasted here.

    Swarming will still be very possible, and easier to do than on AK. I checked logs for any sort of mention of swarm sizes and the largest I found mentioned was 60. The default kite limit here will be 80, but reduced in certain zones, like skyfire which had notorious pathing, VT, and PoP zones to prevent crazy EXP gains but still good enough that you'll still kite a lot.

    Devs often disagree on what to enable/disable, and have different levels of concern for what is important and what isn't, so sometimes things like buff stripping end up in because it doesn't trivialize the game. How often a bug was abused on AK is also a large consideration, so since DA hate dumping was very rarely done and only in later years, it's easier to remove. Stuff like eye of zomm corpses for CoH bots was done for 10 years so we're not going to fix that. CoH spots in VT are not going to be disabled.

    Alla comments are often provably wrong. If it's a single comment in broken english, and it mentions something that doesn't fit a pattern, then it's probably not going to be considered with much weight. If it's multiple comments then it's much more likely to be considered good evidence.

    We're not creating bad pathing. We're limiting pull sizes INSTEAD of breaking pathing. So we're deviating from AK in order to preserve the better pathing, yet we're criticized for deviating from AK? You guys are the ones demanding that we deviate from AK to a much more significant degree in order to allow crazy large pull sizes for EXP gains not seen on AK. (no limits in PoFire would make my videos look quaint)

    I thought I made this clear: it was tried on AK and it didn't work. The tactic being used on these is not a complicated one at all. It was in fact much easier to pull TVX outside on AK with bard bellow-- all at that was required there would have been 1 bard, 1 hybrid and NEITHER would even have to go inside the building.
     
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