Profession of tanking weapons

Discussion in 'General Discussion' started by Trollio55, Feb 5, 2022.

  1. Lenas

    Lenas I Feel Loved

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    Bloodfrenzy and Hategiver combo on average generates about 129 hate per second (at 65 with max AA and buffs). A wizard chain casting Strike of Solusek generates about 267 hate per second. There's literally nothing you could do about it even if you wanted to.

    Hence, other classes need to throttle. This is where the entire concept of agro management comes from. This might be an extreme nuking example, but debuff classes can generate threat even faster.
     
    Last edited: Feb 8, 2022
  2. thucydides

    thucydides I Feel Loved

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    yes, it's true that there's a ceiling on how much hate you can generate with these weapons, and it's not super high. but throwing it up there against some random numbers just feels like TheoryQuest untethered from typical gameplay.

    its like saying your mana regeneration rate requires you to throttle, or mobs running out of hp when you chain cast SoS requires you to stop nuking at some point, or the fact that you only actually need 0-2 debuffs on a mob while trio-ing tends to cap your debuffer's hate generation. yes, your wizard could steal aggro from your tank. your wizard could also run oom in two pulls and spend the next 3 medding. at some point you'll come to an equilibrium of "how much mana do i want to spend killing this mob?" and you can very easily spend that mana and more against the hate generated by proc weapons.

    the only situation i can think of where this would be relevant is if your trio has a shaman as the only healer and needs a slow on for the shm to be able to keep up on heals. but then again, if that's you, you can probably just let the shaman take a few hits while you taunt.
     
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  3. prattrs

    prattrs Active Member

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    You're painting a picture of agro weapons being pointless, so to help you conjured up a contrived example of how an absolute min-maxer can get their OCD triggered by not being able to chain nuke at the theoretical maximum rate.

    If you're reading this and thinking a warrior might be fun to play, you should know that the situation isn't nearly as dire as the above poster is pretending. Here are the things that will get you typically with agro weapons on a warrior: slowing too soon and snaring too soon. In theory, there should be issues with nuking too soon, but in practice it's just those two. Sure, other classes CAN pull agro off a warrior if they try. It doesn't prevent the group from working. It doesn't prevent mobs from dying. And it doesn't prevent DPS mana from running low.
     
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  4. Lenas

    Lenas I Feel Loved

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    I didn't mean to offend. It's just math. It's just a funny coincidence that the class most meant to hold agro is also the worst at generating it.
     
    Last edited: Feb 9, 2022
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  5. prattrs

    prattrs Active Member

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    I'm not offended!

    I just want new players reading the forums not to be turned off to the class.

    [Edit: Nothing to do with any specific poster, but I do get kind of annoyed with the server meta. It goes something like this: 1) charm for DPS; 2) knight for snap agro; 3) tash and slow everything on inc. The meta formed up like this because decades of EQ math indicate that it's the best. It's also stale and it leaves an enormous amount of EverQuest just sitting on the floor waiting for someone to play with it. Off-meta comps can be a ton of fun. Besides being fun though, they're also surprisingly productive, especially if you count the inevitable chaos incurred by even a good charm group against them. I want everyone to know that they can roll monks and beastlords and necros and whatever else they feel like, and they will still be able to have fun and make progress. If anything offends me, it's the meta.]
     
    Last edited: Feb 9, 2022
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  6. Pithy

    Pithy I Feel Loved

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    I leveled a monk/druid/necro fungeon trio in the dullest days of the Luclin doldrums. Kind of an oddball crew, but I had fun with it, crawling around old world dungeons, visiting every room, checking out all the cool content I'd missed over the years.
     
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  7. Nakunaru

    Nakunaru People Like Me

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    More people need to break the meta. I made a cleric, and tank with said cleric! Heck, @Pithy even let me MT a couple raid mobs!
     
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  8. Pithy

    Pithy I Feel Loved

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    nerf d0rfs amirite
     
  9. Sketchy

    Sketchy People Like Me

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    Anyone can tank anything as long as they can hold aggro and not be one rounded. It's just a question of efficiency.
     
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  10. Indi

    Indi Well-Known Member

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    Since we're on the topic of aggro and hate points... I have noticed based on play experience that the wizard spell Concussion doesn't seem to be reducing hate when resisted as it did on regular EQ and AK. I'm not sure of any more official ways to test this other than gaining aggro and trying to concussion the mob off of me.

    On AK concussion had the same exact same effect of reducing aggro by xx number of points regardless of it being resisted or not. A neat and very useful quirk.

    Link to some testing done back in the day: https://www.graffes.com/forums/showthread.php?8643-The-Truth-about-concussion-(and-other-aggro)
     
  11. Fadetree

    Fadetree People Like Me

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    Jolt worked that way too, I believe, on live.
     
  12. benoeb

    benoeb People Like Me

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    I read this as playing a warrior without having weapons of this caliber (threat gen procs) would be pointless because warriors have nothing else going for them (stuns/dots). Your words that I have quoted are leaning heavily into hyperbolic territory because that isn't what was said at all. All Lenas responded with was threat generation numbers and how it works within the game which is something that may help "new" players & not anecdotal experiences based upon solo 3 boxing instances were you control the entire environment.

    If anecdotal data is the barrier to entry I can with one spell cast during the intial 7 secs of a pull or 2 spell casts within 15 secs of a pull snap aggro off of Miyamoto (this is not an indicment of Miya's aggro, just an example of a high skilled player with great gear) whenever I wanted, but because I understand how aggro works and I dont want to impede the flow of the group I don't. Metas exist because they are the best, not because they are the most fun to play.

    Being mad at meta comps in a 23 year old game is like

    [​IMG]
     
    Last edited: Feb 12, 2022
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  13. Tryfan

    Tryfan People Like Me

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    I am not sure why you think it is not working now? It has always worked this way to me.
     
  14. Darchon

    Darchon I Feel Loved

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    Yea I’ve had a resisted concussion land and had a mob peel off me to focus on someone else before here. It works as you described Indi.
     
  15. Trollio55

    Trollio55 Member

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    Love seeing all the talk about agro and everything! When I first posted this thread, I had my doubts about being a warrior and wondered if I'd made a mistake. There's certainly easier ways to gain agro as a hybrid with spells, but with proper management, I've had no significant issues in my trio of cleric, enc and warrior. When I level the warrior, I actually did it as bard, mage and warrior. Definitely not ideal! But I made it to 55 before I split the warrior off and subbed out my wizard.

    For me personally, going from being an enc/clr/wiz trio to enc/clr/war and having someone there in front of the main mob when charm broke was a gamechanger because my enchanter wasn't tanking 2 things at once. The war could easily be subbed for a hybrid tank or even a mag with a pet and it would be better than the wizard (I tried my enc/clr/wiz the other day and don't understand how I got to 60 lol!) And in a trio setting, when the mob is rootable, there's absolutely no issues. Heck the warrior could have no weapons and would be fine still taking the hits and just being closest to the rooted mob. It was when I started facing hobgoblins in PoN that things got messy because I couldn't root to get slow off and keep the mob on the warrior and my trio was only 61 so I couldn't pac so I was pulling 3 at once and hoping the warrior didn't die before agro was achieved (for what it's worth I don't think a hybrid would have survive without def disc). Doable, but not ideal! That's where I started to wonder if there was anything in between for weapons, but it sounds like it doesn't matter if it's a wavecrasher or BoC, there's simply a degree of agro management with unrootable mobs with a warrior and when you've got a high agro generating class like a wizard.
     
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  16. Little Richard

    Little Richard New Member

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    I absolutely love the idea of not min/maxing. Lets see more fun race/class combinations!
     
  17. kai4785

    kai4785 People Like Me

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    I love my war/brd/clr trio. Terrible DPS (combined less than a similarly geared wizard or mage), but I enjoy being impossible to kill. PoP gave my bard a 50% slow, and it's only made things more fun.
    When I need to farm green mobs like Hoppers in DSP, I swap clr for dru, and crank the Damage shield over 100. On a few occasions, I've let the warrior low health for berserk, swap in my Dathor Hammer, hit the crit disc, and then hit rampage. I think I've done 10k damage in one swing with 30 hoppers in range!
    I've also tried the meta dru/enc/pal, and it's fun to see my pet do 400dps, but I suck at it and die a lot, haha. So I think I still do more overall DPS with my plate trio, cause I never need a break!
    My favorite dumb trio is actually my three bards. It's hilariously viable face tanking on my VT geared Bard, with the other two doing support like snare and dots and haste.
     
    Last edited: Feb 24, 2022
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  18. Toomuch

    Toomuch Member

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    I'm just gonna chime in for funsies on a couple things.

    I originally started out super-meta, with a Paladin/Druid/Enchanter combo. It worked great, and I never stopped liking my paladin, but at the time my guild REALLY needed warriors, and I've done warrior before and really like it too, so at 60 I basically used my druid and enchanter to PL my warrior to 60. So my trio was then Warrior/Druid/Enchanter.

    So here's the thing though, I've got a family and job that both require my attention, and I can't always be min-max charming. I've actually started playing around with Warrior/Druid/Paladin a couple times, and as long as I've got enchanter buffs, and especially if I can dire charm something on the druid, it's actually not the worst comp. I managed to get the meat-tenderizer from Tactics for my paladin too, so DPS is actually better than it sounds.

    I mean, nothing's going to stand up against hasted pets quadding for 500 and backstabbing to boot, but it's fun being really not-squishy. And I've got a Willsapper on warrior for mini-slows.

    Back to the topic at hand though - As far as "real" agro weapons go, there's one you might be able to loot if you're high enough level to get into PoInnovation, and the weapon happens to be rotting, which is a legitimate possibility if warriors all have "better" - https://www.takproject.net/allaclone/item.php?id=22580 . It's not a terrible weapon at all, but there's 3 or 4 from Ssra alone that are either better or just as good, as well as BoC, so there's a good chance that literally no warriors present would use it, and nobody present even wants to bring their alt warrior real quick just to nab a side-grade. Maybe keep your eyes peeled and ears to the ground to see if anyone is gonna do Xanamech! :)
     
    Last edited: Mar 3, 2022
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