9-19-2018

Discussion in 'Changelog' started by robregen, Sep 19, 2018.

  1. robregen

    robregen Administrator Staff Member

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    Torven

    * Warrior /shield implemented.
    * Pet melee hate was reduced.
    * Summoned pets get hate bonuses again.
    * Pet non-damaging detrimental spell component (e.g. stuns) hate was increased.
    * Pet hate will again (reversing the change from last patch) prevent NPC summoning if pet hate > ranged attacker hate even when PCs are in melee range.
    * Wizard spell Icestrike will now resist as other rain spells do.
    * Wizard and Cleric 'dumbfire' pets no longer bash or kick.
    * DA (invulnerability) spells no longer modify the hate lists of NPCs that hate the invulnerable player.
    solar
    * change Afflicition Efficiency to work on all detrimental buffs, ignoring the effect 0 restriction limit in the focus
    * Bard fix: bard instrument mod fixes including puretone
    * Bard fix: changed the way bard spell pulses are applied
    * Bard fix: suppress did not take hold messages for bard group buffs that hit a player full on buffs

    Database:
    Torven

    * ssratemple: Drop rate for Spell: Garrison's Superior Sunder has been increased.
    * ssratemple: Emperor Ssraeshza's respawn timer now resets on scheduled server reboots.
    * tenebrous: Heratius Grolden and Valdanov Zevfeer no longer summon.
    Robregen
    * Katta: Centurion guards should now equipped their weapons.
    * Vex Thal: Correct the zone in location.

    Misc:
    Haynar

    * Updated water tube pathing in ssra temple. Mobs will now path through the tubes when moving between floors. Fixed some pathing issues around ramps in tube rooms.
     
  2. Cadsuane

    Cadsuane People Like Me

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    "* DA (invulnerability) spells no longer modify the hate lists of NPCs that hate the invulnerable player."
    If I understand right, was DA essentially zeroing a player's hate? What does it do now? nothing at all aside from protecting the player, and having them be ignored while DA is active?
    (I have no idea of the akuracy of either, but want to understand what's up)
     
  3. Faults

    Faults I Feel Loved

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    I was fairly sure DA on AK set your aggro to 1.
     
  4. Ravenwing

    Ravenwing I Feel Loved

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    It did. Or at least to some very low nonzero value.
     
  5. Pithy

    Pithy I Feel Loved

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    On AK, DA did drop the affected player's hate to 1 (or something very small) on all mobs that hated them, and kept it there even after DA wore off. There's a significant AKuracy vs. balance question here, though, as this mechanic can hugely change aggro management for nukers and debuffers on raids.
     
  6. robregen

    robregen Administrator Staff Member

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    it was assumed it was another one of those exploiting bug that aren't meant to work like that. On DBG Live, that was fixed. I'm sure Torven will provide information on this.
     
  7. Cadsuane

    Cadsuane People Like Me

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    So can just camping out, or getting a CoH from range. I though that all DA spells having a long refresh, or clicky raid loot recharge requirements, or a expendable flag, was the counterbalance to that?
    When was it changed on live -- in Luclin/PoP era, or much later?
     
  8. Haynar

    Haynar Administrator

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    Put a bard with a group of wizards. And use bard DA to drop their hate to 1.

    Thats the big concern I heard discussed.
     
  9. Cadsuane

    Cadsuane People Like Me

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    Seems like a completely valid use of genuine game mechanics. One could just camp out the wizards occasionally while meditating on a long fight instead of DA-ing, and the only thing changed is that the fight lasts maybe another minute longer and is less convenient.ng.
    I did a quick keyword search (divine|invul) of all patch logs in 2000-2004 or 5 and didn't find any reference to aggro effects of DA.

    I guess that I don't really have a strong opinion on it, personally play no wizard, but it seemed surprising that this would be nerfed when the net effect that it attempts to change is obtainable at minor inconvenience by reloggig.
     
  10. Darchon

    Darchon I Feel Loved

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    I dunno, I think it was intended. That’s how they resolved the DA tanking issue in PoSky.

    Guilds were tanking raid mobs by using high aggro and DA Idols because Hate wasn’t reduced by DAs originally so their first solution was the AK variant which removed your hate to the bottom of the list. The Live variant just removes a DA player as a possible target unless it’s the only player on aggro.

    I really don’t like this change though. With Luclin our raid fights even with a large percent of our rid being DPS are 10-15minutes in VT. We will just have wizards camp out after 2minutes.

    In no way will this make fights more challenging for us or any guild. It will just force certain classes to camp out to Reset aggro on longer fights.
     
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  11. Ravenwing

    Ravenwing I Feel Loved

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    Yes, we did try to put bards with wizards for encounters like Fennin on AK so that the wizards could drop their hate once or twice in a fight.

    Of course, there are other ways of doing the same: binding at a boss (possible in all the EPs on AK), casting abscond, and gating back; quickly relogging. DA is the most convenient and the most efficient, for sure.
     
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  12. Bragon

    Bragon People Like Me

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    So you mean with this change you can DA tank any rooted mob using the DA hammer by building a zillion aggro and just proc'ing DA?

    That sounds a LOT more exploity than dropping aggro which can be accomplished with many other ways.
     
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  13. Darchon

    Darchon I Feel Loved

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    I suspect they moved to the live implementation. Mobs will ignore DA players and when DA ends your position in the hatelist will be unchanged.

    This doesn’t have much exploitability but there is some. Specifically for tagging out of train strategies because your hate list after DA ends is unchanged, you can now build AE Aggro with runes or heals, DA and run through mobs when they have someone else on aggro, then click off DA and they all turn back around to charge you except the single mob that you overaggroed.

    For example I think we can get away with clearing 0 mobs after breaking the room up to TVK now.
     
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  14. Bragon

    Bragon People Like Me

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    i mean whatever we'll just log off the wizards for a split seconds during med time.
     
  15. Faults

    Faults I Feel Loved

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    So the problem was a bard and wizards acting cooperatively to gain advantage? Sometimes I don't even know.
     
  16. Sketchy

    Sketchy People Like Me

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    Why don't we let Torven explain before we get too worked up about this.
     
  17. showstring

    showstring I Feel Loved

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    I think this was a fix to Monk AC by offering invulnerability
     
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  18. solar

    solar Administrator Staff Member

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    I'm probably going to be flamed for this but I supported the Divine Aura change.

    Besides wiping wizard hate, another angle is that it's the 'oh crap' spell for clerics when they heal early and gain aggro. With the hate wipe they can just DA, click it off, and heal again safely. Without it, the tank has a limited amount of time to regain aggro before the DA wears off and the cleric eats it. The cleric can't keep healing unless they click it off in which case they're being pummeled again. Hate wiping DA is very strong in this regard. You can camp out and log back in, but you shouldn't be able to DA camp a cleric so easily during a wipe either. It worked reliably on TAKP because of the hate wipe, but without it I expect that sitting clerics will usually get whacked once the DA wears off, before they can finish camping.

    This is just my own opinion, and logic doesn't always apply to everquest mechanics, but I think the intention for DA is to give you a few seconds of safety while you run away to zone or get saved by another player who pulls it off you. I don't expect that everyone agree with me but I think it's materially different and much better as a hate management spell than as a few seconds of invulnerability, especially considering that nothing will hit you while you're invulnerable so you can't soak damage this way. This wasn't always the case - you used to be able to tank with DA as was pointed out, and it's likely that the hate wiping was introduced as a hasty fix to try to prevent that strategy from working. The eventual proper fix was to change the AI logic to stop attacking DA'd players and choose someone else to beat on.

    Consider the utility of abilities like Fading Memories, Escape and Feign Death - they have long cooldowns and FD can fail. Concussion and Jolt require sacrificing DPS to reduce your hate. Memory Blur spells like Atone are unreliable. Looking at these makes me think that DA spells are not meant to be cheap and reliable hate wiping spells. I think this is in the same realm as MC filling your mana bar. It's not supposed to be THAT good.
     
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  19. Mokli

    Mokli I Feel Loved

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    We keep veering further from Akcurracy, IMO. Pretty soon there will be little excuse to simply not raise the Monk AC softcap or add in custom content, so just keep that in mind as we continue down this path.
     
  20. gardnerjens

    gardnerjens People Like Me

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    i honestly dont think the devs thought of ways to use their tools, it was allways the community that did it
     
  21. lurari

    lurari People Like Me

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    I'm glad to see this "bug" fixed but the archery "bug" remain.
     
  22. gardnerjens

    gardnerjens People Like Me

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    715
    also i dont think people play here for the challenge they play here for the nostalga
     
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  23. Cadsuane

    Cadsuane People Like Me

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    815
    Yes, it was the pioneering days of MMOs, and understanding game mechanics and synergies let to emergent behavior and strategy. It's pretty cool. When things were horribly bad, they changed them, otherwise, they let people be creative.
     
  24. Torven

    Torven I Feel Loved

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    I wasn't aware that our code was setting hate to 1 on DA casts. EQEmu apparently had it in even though there is also code to ignore DA entities when determining which entity the NPC goes after.

    Developers decided to remove it because:

    * Any use of DA to lower aggro seems to have been done only in the last year or so of AK's life, and infrequently. On TAKP it was being done routinely and this negatively impacts class balance.
    * To give some idea of frequency: Zorblak (Temerity wizard and officer) has no bard DAs (and only 1 cleric DA, to get a corpse) in all of his many logs, spanning years. Fanglore's wizard used DA to lower aggro on maybe 5-6 raid bosses total (it's a huge log), with the first instance literally 3 months before AK shut down.
    * Even AK players called it 'cheesey' in several comments.
    * DA was supposedly nerfed on Ykesha's launch in Jan 2003; about 2 months after AK's fork, and wasn't common knowledge to begin with, so this was never really a thing on PC side. DA on Live does not modify hate at all.
    * Logs suggest that hate wasn't set to 1 anyway (although still reduced significantly), as I see Fanglore's wizard dying even after DA is used; also Bragon accidentally got DAed once and regained aggro after clicking it off.

    [Mon Aug 2 23:36:59 2010] Zoink auctions, '333! ----- The devil heals Bragon ---- 333'
    [Mon Aug 2 23:37:00 2010] elite guardian of ro says 'You will not evade me Zoink!'
    [Mon Aug 2 23:37:02 2010] elite guardian of ro says 'Hahahaha! Another foolish one has fallen to my might.'
    [Mon Aug 2 23:37:08 2010] Bragon tells temheals:7, 'who the fuck DA'ed me?'
    [Mon Aug 2 23:37:10 2010] elite guardian of ro says 'You will not evade me Vecna!'
    (heal chain never switches off of Bragon)
    [Mon Aug 2 23:38:19 2010] Prudence tells temheals:7, 'You know you can click off DA, right? :p'
    [Mon Aug 2 23:38:26 2010] Bragon tells temheals:7, 'i did'
    [Mon Aug 2 23:38:43 2010] Glimi tells temheals:7, 'he knows but it takes time to click hence 2 died'
    [Mon Aug 2 23:38:43 2010] Knovo tells temheals:7, 'DA will still drop your argo. Not good for a MT thats currently tanking'
    [Mon Aug 2 23:38:53 2010] Pane tells temheals:7, 'it was not on purpose'
    [Mon Aug 2 23:39:25 2010] You tell temheals:7, 'DA doesn't actually clear your aggro. It just puts you on the bottom of the hate list for the duration of the buff. Still not a good thing, though.'
    [Mon Aug 2 23:39:35 2010] Bragon tells temheals:7, 'correct'
    [Mon Aug 2 23:39:42 2010] Bragon tells temheals:7, 'but that's enough to get people killed'
    [Mon Aug 2 23:40:16 2010] Zetro tells temheals:7, 'We dont want the assigned tank on the bottom of the aggro list for 18 seconds '
    [Mon Aug 2 23:41:53 2010] Knovo tells temheals:7, 'Pretty sure DA drops you to bottom of argo list. First version of DA you had normal argo, people were tanking with it. Nerfed it. Second version, people dropped to bottom of argo list, but no good since it was argo control. So thrid version they made DA affect argo only while up. They chnaged to that third version during PoP. I think its second version on this server'
    [Mon Aug 2 23:42:10 2010] Bragon tells temheals:7, 'it does, but you regain your aggro when you click it off K'
    [Mon Aug 2 23:42:34 2010] Neea tells temheals:7, 'so. Knovo. we were really just testing which version of DA this server has?'
    [Mon Aug 2 23:42:43 2010] Zygor tells temheals:7, 'only while up, you get agro right back if you click it off'
    [Mon Aug 2 23:42:47 2010] Knovo tells temheals:7, 'On pc side. yes. But there was a time, that it didnt. Was changed to that final version in middle of pop somewhere'
    [Mon Aug 2 23:42:57 2010] Bragon tells temheals:7, 'pretty sure it's the same here too'
    [Mon Aug 2 23:44:08 2010] Knovo tells temheals:7, 'Im not 100% on which version, but its my experiance that seems to say we have second version of DA on this server not pc version'

    [Wed Aug 21 23:06:25 2013] Magmaton goes on a RAMPAGE!
    [Wed Aug 21 23:07:01 2013] Magmaton was hit by non-melee for 3273 points of damage.
    [Wed Aug 21 23:07:24 2013] Your target resisted the Agnarr's Thunder spell.
    [Wed Aug 21 23:07:40 2013] Magmaton was hit by non-melee for 2973 points of damage.
    [Wed Aug 21 23:07:54 2013] Magmaton was hit by non-melee for 1130 points of damage.
    [Wed Aug 21 23:08:09 2013] Magmaton was hit by non-melee for 2835 points of damage.
    [Wed Aug 21 23:08:24 2013] Magmaton was hit by non-melee for 2443 points of damage.
    [Wed Aug 21 23:08:39 2013] Magmaton was hit by non-melee for 2789 points of damage.
    [Wed Aug 21 23:08:56 2013] Magmaton was hit by non-melee for 2397 points of damage.
    [Wed Aug 21 23:09:07 2013] Magmaton was hit by non-melee for 1859 points of damage.
    [Wed Aug 21 23:09:28 2013] Magmaton was hit by non-melee for 3042 points of damage. 10 casts in 3:03 ~ 100.8 hate/s
    [Wed Aug 21 23:09:32 2013] You feel protected.
    [Wed Aug 21 23:09:44 2013] You no longer feel protected.
    [Wed Aug 21 23:10:00 2013] Magmaton was hit by non-melee for 3273 points of damage.
    [Wed Aug 21 23:10:16 2013] Magmaton was hit by non-melee for 5024 points of damage.
    [Wed Aug 21 23:10:26 2013] Magmaton was hit by non-melee for 5555 points of damage.
    [Wed Aug 21 23:10:37 2013] Magmaton was hit by non-melee for 2328 points of damage.
    [Wed Aug 21 23:10:51 2013] Magmaton was hit by non-melee for 81 points of damage.
    [Wed Aug 21 23:11:06 2013] Magmaton was hit by non-melee for 3250 points of damage.
    [Wed Aug 21 23:11:20 2013] Magmaton was hit by non-melee for 3157 points of damage.
    [Wed Aug 21 23:11:36 2013] Magmaton was hit by non-melee for 3296 points of damage.
    [Wed Aug 21 23:11:45 2013] Magmaton was hit by non-melee for 2950 points of damage.
    [Wed Aug 21 23:11:57 2013] Magmaton was hit by non-melee for 644 points of damage.
    [Wed Aug 21 23:12:09 2013] Magmaton was hit by non-melee for 2881 points of damage.
    [Wed Aug 21 23:12:25 2013] Magmaton was hit by non-melee for 313 points of damage.
    [Wed Aug 21 23:12:39 2013] Magmaton was hit by non-melee for 3250 points of damage.
    [Wed Aug 21 23:12:55 2013] Magmaton was hit by non-melee for 2789 points of damage.
    [Wed Aug 21 23:13:10 2013] Your target resisted the Agnarr's Thunder spell.
    [Wed Aug 21 23:13:24 2013] Magmaton was hit by non-melee for 4563 points of damage.
    [Wed Aug 21 23:13:42 2013] Magmaton was hit by non-melee for 5462 points of damage.
    [Wed Aug 21 23:14:05 2013] Magmaton was hit by non-melee for 685 points of damage.
    [Wed Aug 21 23:14:27 2013] Magmaton was hit by non-melee for 2535 points of damage.
    [Wed Aug 21 23:14:42 2013] Magmaton was hit by non-melee for 1656 points of damage.
    [Wed Aug 21 23:14:54 2013] Magmaton was hit by non-melee for 3065 points of damage.
    [Wed Aug 21 23:15:04 2013] Magmaton was hit by non-melee for 2512 points of damage.
    [Wed Aug 21 23:15:14 2013] Magmaton was hit by non-melee for 2604 points of damage.
    [Wed Aug 21 23:15:14 2013] Magmaton has become ENRAGED.
    [Wed Aug 21 23:15:29 2013] Magmaton was hit by non-melee for 2443 points of damage. 34 casts in 9:04 ~ 115.3 hate/s; 24 casts ~81.4 hate/s
    [Wed Aug 21 23:15:29 2013] You have been summoned!
    [Wed Aug 21 23:15:33 2013] You have been slain by Magmaton!
    (tank never died; no concussions)
     
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  25. Haynar

    Haynar Administrator

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    3,637
    I proposed that if we are gonna nerf DI. Give rangers their archery fix. Give Monks their AC.

    I was basically told, "not akurate".

    I tried. Sorry guys.
     
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  26. Bragon

    Bragon People Like Me

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    288
    The hero we deserve but not one we need right now.

    Or just a very clever trolling post.

    Well played sir.

    Pretty sure i either had to taunt or aoe taunt.
     
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  27. Sketchy

    Sketchy People Like Me

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    991
    We rarely have issues with cleric aggro, it is mainly used for wizards to drop aggro. Which camping will fix. DA earrings will no longer be as useful. This isn't a hill that I really care to die on though.
     
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  28. Linkamus

    Linkamus People Like Me

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    +1
     
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  29. Faults

    Faults I Feel Loved

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    So can you just give rangers their arrows? Wizards are still gonna dps as hard. The monk AC fix isn't in yet? I felt 1.87% better.
     
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  30. solar

    solar Administrator Staff Member

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    1,194
    So how's the bard stuff, is that any better? Can you guys try Puretone and debuffs and all that again and see how it goes?