Open Discussion about Archery and Corners

Discussion in 'General Discussion' started by Linkamus, Aug 24, 2018.

  1. Tryfan

    Tryfan People Like Me

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    I'd give anything for a snow bunny illusion item.
     
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  2. Thunderace

    Thunderace People Like Me

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    Yeah iirc it was a scavanger hunt.

    I remember getting server first savage platinum fists on my beastlord at lv54. yay for pixels
     
  3. Quirk

    Quirk Well-Known Member

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    It was a scavenger hunt and if I recall correctly one of the items you needed to turn in was a Forest Loop. She said only pre-time items allowed but some people requested Time items. The GM got very angry and stopped the contest and quit being an AK GM.
     
    Last edited: Aug 29, 2018
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  4. Tyrion

    Tyrion Well-Known Member

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    The event I recall you just showed up and linked whatever you wanted and it appeared in ure trade screen. /mourn mosquito boots/memory for ench
     
  5. pharmakos

    pharmakos People Like Me

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    wow
     
  6. Foxboxx

    Foxboxx People Like Me

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    The Luclin launch event seemed to be in the spirit of that. I am sure some items were perhaps removed, but it seemed like any item in the game's database was a possible reward for the zone fragments dropping in Shadeweavers. It seemed like that to me anyway, since I got a piece of the PoTactics key =P. Perhaps you had a slight chance of getting that coveted illusion item!
     
  7. Faults

    Faults I Feel Loved

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    Next anniversary event should add those dwarf masks from sleepers that we can't ever get
     
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  8. Dryfly

    Dryfly Active Member

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    Man if this is about people having 3 eq/am3 rangers on a raid, make it so you can only have 1 ranger in certain zones (ssra, seru, VP, VT, etc) or only allow 1 box to have full functionality. Not sure how you do that, but you are the devs. I am sorry that rangers get a chance to shine after being shunned and laughed at for so long and I am sorry that Torven apparently had crappy rangers in his guild that could not find the sweet spot of cornered mobs but eq/am3 rangers were badass in Luclin. We earned that for being groupless and laughed at for 3 expansions (waiting for the next ranger joke that I just set myself up for).
     
  9. Linkamus

    Linkamus People Like Me

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    Eh... Just because they couldn't find sweet spots doesn't mean they were crappy. I think a lot of rangers either didn't know, or just didn't find it worth the time. And in some cases, there just WEREN'T sweet spots.

    I think the last thing you want to do if anything is to be done about this bug is to insult one of the Dev's past guild, btw...

    Also, not sure what you mean about limiting certain zones to 1 ranger. That makes no sense to me.
     
    Last edited: Aug 29, 2018
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  10. Haynar

    Haynar Administrator

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    If you are in a guild that limits you to one ranger at any time.

    Find a new guild.
     
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  11. Faults

    Faults I Feel Loved

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    This was the thinking for me - unless i knew i could hit with archery OR that melee was deadly for some reason (ae, adds, fennin etc) - every second I wasted trying to find the sweet spot was a half round of melee I gave up. So link is dead on - it wasn't worth my time most of the time. If I wasn't trueshotting for the full duration - and I had to dick around with positioning - you better bet I was meleeing quick.
     
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  12. solar

    solar Administrator Staff Member

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    I think he meant a one-ranger-per-human-player policy, to discourage swarms of rangers, though I don't think that's the point of contention here.
     
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  13. Foxboxx

    Foxboxx People Like Me

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    Tallon Zek in PoTime was definitely one of those cases of usually not being worth the time. Many times I would give up on trying to find the spot, but other times I would find it and just happily plink away. How hard I looked for a spot on the iffier ones depended on length of fight, danger involved, and just if I was really in the mood for some archery.
     
    Last edited: Aug 29, 2018
  14. Dryfly

    Dryfly Active Member

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    Look, plenty of rangers were able on many raid mobs to find a point within a reasonable amount of time that allowed corner mobs to be hit on Classic (again I did not play AK)... some guilds/rangers never figured it out. Sorry if that was a bit harsh but I am frustrated when there are plenty of people with good reputations from AK stating that yes, cornered mobs could be hit with archery and Torven then uses a nebulous quote from which one could potentially infer was part in jest and part from a not so informed ranger from his own guild as evidence to support the don't allow cornered mobs decision. The biggest challenge in all of this, and where it gets messy, is to better understand which raid mobs could get hit and which could not. Also Solar was correct in the interpretation that if the concern is a bunch of people 3 boxing OP Autofire rangers on a raid as being way too easy, then yes allow only 1 ranger with EQ/AM3 per 3 box or pump up the aggro on arrows to force them to at least jolt.

    ps Haynar my guild would definitely allow me to 2 box rangers on a raid so they could sling 2x the insults... Spaide would be in heaven ;p
     
  15. Linkamus

    Linkamus People Like Me

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    Spaide has the best ranger jokes ever.
     
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  16. Haynar

    Haynar Administrator

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    I meant a one ranger limit. Because appearenly rangers suck so bad. No guild truely interested in progression would have more than one, except for buffs. Soon as mob is wall, they start dancing around talking about finding the sweet spot.

    A raid is better off filled with monks. Who can at least do consisently do dps. And only whine about taking hits.
     
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  17. Linkamus

    Linkamus People Like Me

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    +1 lol
     
  18. Torven

    Torven I Feel Loved

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    The 'if I don't get my way, you insult my honor' argument doesn't work here. I don't trust MYSELF, so I certainly don't trust anybody else. More than once I was so sure about something I recalled that I just put it in without checking, decided to check after implementation because not checking is dumb, then I found out my memory was faulty and had to remove.

    'a nebulous quote'? I provided two dozen quotes and some from posters in this very thread.

    How is "If any mob is in any part of two walls or more, you can forget about archery, don't matter how large their hitbox is" (the only text in the entire post) 'nebulous' or a joke?

    The 'out of context' argument is also crap. I searched for lines containing 'corner' and 'archery' or 'ranger' or 'arrow' and found no mention of 'sweet spots' or 'we can hit the mob if we stand over here'. I'm not the only person with the logs, so if you think I'm being dishonest, ask them to look.

    "My memory is pretty bad." The single example provided (MM) can be explained due to his unique positioning on top of the pedestal. In fact MM is the single mob he had saved archery hits for, which further suggests that MM was special. What other NPC is going to have a Z that high above the ranger and still only hittable from near melee range?

    Faults replies with "there are logs from me" (and he provided one, just one of a ranger) and I looked at it. I didn't find any 'sweet spot' archery in it, and in fact it only had 9 trueshots.

    Further replies: "trust us, archery DPS was crap" is contradicted by my old parses and my new AK ones, which show un-disc archery rivialing monk DPS.
    "Warrior melee obliterates ranger melee"
    "Rogues and Wizards do over 400 DPS"
    "90% of cornered mobs were shootable"
    ...are all heavily contradicted by the evidence.

    I'm parsing multiple classes in multiple setups at 1 hr each so this takes time, but I'll post some numbers later.

    My guild was something like the 8th in the world to enter Time Phase 5. We were a top 10 guild. I had the highest AC of any warrior on any server before I quit. My guild won the Curt Schilling jersey contest. (remember that?) We had PoTime to ourselves for like 6+ months.

    My guild rangers read the ranger boards, as they quoted it many times. If 'sweet spots' were commonly known, then why didn't our 'crappy' rangers find a thread mentioning them?

    speaking of evidence, here's some for bias ^

    So why is there so much crying over this?
     
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  19. Torven

    Torven I Feel Loved

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    Btw, I am still looking, because you're providing motivation. /shield implementation can wait I guess.

    Fanglore's log had about 9 RZtW attempts/kills in it. He was the tank almost every time. One fight had other's hits on. All but one had crits from others. 383 crits were in these fights. The only crits above 528 (max BoW crit) were a few from rogues. Note that ranger archery crit chance with full AAs is ~23%.

    [Sat May 11 13:47:34 2013] Cicero begins to cast a spell.
    [Sat May 11 15:34:57 2013] Cicero Scores a critical hit!(62)
    [Sat May 11 15:35:03 2013] Rallos Zek the Warlord goes on a RAMPAGE! <----- AoE Rampage
    [Sat May 11 15:35:03 2013] Cicero's armor crumbles to the ground. <----- Ranger getting hit by contact proc
    [Sat May 11 15:35:13 2013] Cicero begins to cast a spell.
    [Sat May 11 15:35:15 2013] Cicero is blasted with chlorophyll.
    [Sat May 11 15:35:20 2013] Cicero begins to cast a spell.
    [Sat May 11 15:35:23 2013] Cicero is blasted with chlorophyll.
    [Sat May 11 15:35:27 2013] Cicero begins to cast a spell.
    [Sat May 11 15:35:30 2013] Cicero is blasted with chlorophyll.
    [Sat May 11 15:35:34 2013] Cicero's body is covered with a bright glow.
    [Sat May 11 15:35:34 2013] Cicero begins to cast a spell.
    [Sat May 11 15:35:40 2013] Cicero begins to cast a spell.
    [Sat May 11 15:36:14 2013] Cicero begins to cast a spell.
    [Sat May 11 15:36:20 2013] Cicero Scores a critical hit!(47) <---- all these crits are small, indicating melee
    [Sat May 11 15:36:23 2013] Cicero begins to cast a spell.
    [Sat May 11 15:36:43 2013] Cicero Scores a critical hit!(47)
    [Sat May 11 15:36:47 2013] Cicero Scores a critical hit!(57)
    [Sat May 11 15:36:52 2013] Cicero begins to cast a spell.
    [Sat May 11 15:36:54 2013] Cicero's eyes go wide with horror.
    [Sat May 11 15:36:59 2013] Cicero begins to cast a spell.
    [Sat May 11 15:37:08 2013] Cicero Scores a critical hit!(72)
    [Sat May 11 15:37:12 2013] Cicero begins to cast a spell.
    [Sat May 11 15:37:14 2013] Cicero is blasted with chlorophyll.
    [Sat May 11 15:37:19 2013] Cicero begins to cast a spell.
    [Sat May 11 15:37:21 2013] Cicero is blasted with chlorophyll.
    [Sat May 11 15:37:25 2013] Cicero begins to cast a spell.
    [Sat May 11 15:37:27 2013] Cicero is blasted with chlorophyll.
    [Sat May 11 15:37:31 2013] Cicero begins to cast a spell.
    [Sat May 11 15:37:34 2013] Cicero performs an exceptional heal! (1018)
    [Sat May 11 15:37:34 2013] Cicero is blasted with chlorophyll.
    [Sat May 11 15:37:37 2013] Cicero begins to cast a spell.
    [Sat May 11 15:37:37 2013] Cicero's body is covered with a bright glow.
    [Sat May 11 15:37:38 2013] Cicero's casting is interrupted!
    [Sat May 11 15:37:39 2013] Cicero begins to cast a spell.
    [Sat May 11 15:37:46 2013] Cicero begins to cast a spell.

    Fanglore had other's hits on for this RZtW, only two arrow hits are found in the log. I don't see why he might not have been cornered at the time:

    [Tue Oct 15 19:19:34 2013] Majo begins to cast a spell.
    [Tue Oct 15 19:19:56 2013] Majo hits Rallos Zek the Warlord for 360 points of damage. <---- one archery hit, then all melee
    [Tue Oct 15 19:20:14 2013] Majo slashes Rallos Zek the Warlord for 108 points of damage. <---- he starts melee, about 45 slashes total
    [Tue Oct 15 19:20:39 2013] Majo slashes Rallos Zek the Warlord for 45 points of damage. <---- last melee hit in log, 25 seconds of it
    [Tue Oct 15 19:21:30 2013] Majo begins to cast a spell. <---- last mention of him. getting adds?
    [Tue Oct 15 19:23:08 2013] Rallos Zek the Warlord's corpse falls to the ground sending a tremor across the bloodied ground of the arena. The black armor around the corpse begins to crack and shatter.

    [Tue Oct 15 19:19:22 2013] Moppot begins to cast a spell.
    [Tue Oct 15 19:19:41 2013] Moppot begins to cast a spell.
    [Tue Oct 15 19:20:27 2013] Moppot begins to cast a spell.
    [Tue Oct 15 19:20:34 2013] Moppot hits Rallos Zek the Warlord for 496 points of damage. <---- the only hit from him in entire fight
    [Tue Oct 15 19:21:01 2013] Moppot begins to cast a spell.
    [Tue Oct 15 19:21:36 2013] Moppot begins to cast a spell.
    [Tue Oct 15 19:22:14 2013] Moppot begins to cast a spell.
    [Tue Oct 15 19:22:32 2013] A Diaku Death Knight slashes Moppot for 223 points of damage.
    [Tue Oct 15 19:22:32 2013] A Diaku Death Knight hits Moppot for 274 points of damage.
    [Tue Oct 15 19:22:33 2013] A Diaku Death Knight hits Moppot for 392 points of damage.
    [Tue Oct 15 19:22:34 2013] A Diaku Death Knight slashes Moppot for 122 points of damage.
    [Tue Oct 15 19:22:34 2013] A Diaku Death Knight slashes Moppot for 409 points of damage.
    [Tue Oct 15 19:22:34 2013] A Diaku Death Knight hits Moppot for 122 points of damage.
    [Tue Oct 15 19:22:36 2013] A Diaku Death Knight slashes Moppot for 409 points of damage. (this is every line for this ranger in this fight)

    RZtW is one of the most melee unfriendly NPCs in the game. I see more rangers meleeing him than I see archery hits on him, but I do see a couple (literally two) hits.

    PoEarthA boss:

    [Thu May 20 23:23:57 2010] Linkamus's eyes sharpen with an aura of avian presence.
    [Thu May 20 23:24:03 2010] Linkamus Scores a critical hit!(797)
    [Thu May 20 23:24:13 2010] Linkamus Scores a critical hit!(545)
    [Thu May 20 23:24:22 2010] Linkamus Scores a critical hit!(1150)
    [Thu May 20 23:24:32 2010] Linkamus Scores a critical hit!(1069)
    [Thu May 20 23:24:46 2010] Linkamus Scores a critical hit!(1042)
    [Thu May 20 23:24:56 2010] Linkamus Scores a critical hit!(1089)
    [Thu May 20 23:25:06 2010] Linkamus Scores a critical hit!(1150)
    [Thu May 20 23:25:13 2010] Glimi says out of character, 'walled'
    [Thu May 20 23:25:17 2010] Linkamus Scores a critical hit!(586)
    [Thu May 20 23:25:20 2010] Linkamus begins to cast a spell.
    [Thu May 20 23:25:29 2010] Zetro tells the raid, 'lets push him out'
    [Thu May 20 23:25:34 2010] You tell your raid, 'Outta the wall, yo.'
    [Thu May 20 23:25:59 2010] Linkamus begins to cast a spell.
    [Thu May 20 23:26:03 2010] Linkamus begins to cast a spell.
    [Thu May 20 23:26:10 2010] Linkamus is pelted by a cloud of pebbles. (Pebble Rain AoE radius = 50)
    [Thu May 20 23:26:30 2010] Peregrin Rockskull has become ENRAGED.

    Time Saryrn:

    [Thu Mar 29 23:47:36 2012] Bragon tells temtanks:9, 'why are we WSing again?'
    [Thu Mar 29 23:47:58 2012] Ader tells temtanks:9, 'because we have 3 rangers with disc and we're cornering her?' (Ader is a Ranger)
    [Thu Mar 29 23:51:06 2012] Linkamus Scores a critical hit!(120)
    (Linkamus ended up on Rampage. died, was ressed)
    [Fri Mar 30 00:02:20 2012] Linkamus Scores a critical hit!(81)
    [Fri Mar 30 00:02:26 2012] Linkamus Scores a critical hit!(54)
    [Fri Mar 30 00:02:29 2012] Linkamus Scores a critical hit!(102)
    [Fri Mar 30 00:02:34 2012] Linkamus Scores a critical hit!(183)
    [Fri Mar 30 00:03:44 2012] Linkamus Scores a critical hit!(157)
    [Fri Mar 30 00:02:46 2012] Saryrn has been slain by Linkamus!

    [Fri Mar 30 00:01:40 2012] Ader Scores a critical hit!(86)
    [Fri Mar 30 00:02:36 2012] Ader Scores a critical hit!(157)
    [Fri Mar 30 00:02:37 2012] Ader Scores a critical hit!(91)

    [Thu Mar 29 23:51:15 2012] Thiklan Scores a critical hit!(368)
    [Thu Mar 29 23:58:06 2012] Thiklan Scores a critical hit!(994) <--- trash kills
    [Thu Mar 29 23:58:07 2012] A Tormentor was hit by non-melee for 1178 points of damage.
    [Thu Mar 29 23:58:07 2012] A Tormentor is caught in the searing flames of Ro.
    [Fri Mar 30 00:01:26 2012] Thiklan Scores a critical hit!(129)
    [Fri Mar 30 00:01:34 2012] Thiklan Scores a critical hit!(48)
    [Fri Mar 30 00:01:35 2012] Thiklan Scores a critical hit!(48)
    [Fri Mar 30 00:02:01 2012] Thiklan Scores a critical hit!(113)
    [Fri Mar 30 00:02:10 2012] Thiklan Scores a critical hit!(106)
    [Fri Mar 30 00:02:11 2012] Thiklan Scores a critical hit!(142)
    [Fri Mar 30 00:02:34 2012] Thiklan Scores a critical hit!(103)
    [Fri Mar 30 00:02:44 2012] Thiklan Scores a critical hit!(75)

    Cry of Thunder ranger proc buff gives spell text that is only otherwise used for druid stuns and low level druid/ranger nukes, so any of this text on high level mobs is extremely likely to be from ranger melee: (this is from all of my AK logs)

    Kaas Thox Xi Aten Ha Ra has been struck by lightning: 2275
    Diabo Xi Xin Thall has been struck by lightning: 352
    Thall Va Kelun has been struck by lightning: 3425
    Diabo Xi Xin has been struck by lightning: 436
    Va Dyn Khar has been struck by lightning: 26
    Va Xi Aten Ha Ra has been struck by lightning: 1137
    Diabo Xi Va Temariel has been struck by lightning: 2967
    Aten Ha Ra has been struck by lightning: 4194
    Diabo Xi Va has been struck by lightning: 453
    Kaas Thox Xi Ans Dyek has been struck by lightning: 175
    Thall Va Xakra has been struck by lightning: 117

    Vyzh`dra the Exiled has been struck by lightning: 403
    Vyzh`dra the Banished has been struck by lightning: 61
    Vyzh`dra the Cursed has been struck by lightning: 405
    Arch Lich Rhag`Zadune has been struck by lightning: 511
    Xerkizh The Creator has been struck by lightning: 1547
    High Priest of Ssraeshza has been struck by lightning: 45
    Blood of Ssraeshza has been struck by lightning: 260

    Supernatural Guardian has been struck by lightning: 0
    Avatar of the Elements has been struck by lightning: 0
    Saryrn has been struck by lightning: 344
    Sorrowsong has been struck by lightning: 6
    Cazic Thule has been struck by lightning: 14
    Terris Thule has been struck by lightning: 70
    Vallon Zek has been struck by lightning: 105
    Tallon Zek has been struck by lightning: 18
    Rallos Zek the Warlord has been struck by lightning: 13
    Rallos Zek has been struck by lightning: 320
    Bertoxxulous has been struck by lightning: 90
    Innoruuk has been struck by lightning: 0

    The Idol of Rallos Zek has been struck by lightning: 230
    The Avatar of War has been struck by lightning: 296
    King Tormax has been struck by lightning: 88
    Derakor the Vindicator has been struck by lightning: 76
    The Final Arbiter has been struck by lightning: 11
    Nanzata the Warder has been struck by lightning: 26
    Tukaarak the Warder has been struck by lightning: 13
    Ventani the Warder has been struck by lightning: 26
    Hraashna the Warder has been struck by lightning: 9
    Aaryonar has been struck by lightning: 48
    Lord Kreizenn has been struck by lightning: 25
    Lord Koi`Doken has been struck by lightning: 15
    Lady Mirenilla has been struck by lightning: 18
    Lord Kreizenn has been struck by lightning: 25
    Lord Feshlak has been struck by lightning: 25
    Sevalak has been struck by lightning: 0
    Zlexak has been struck by lightning: 6
    Cekenar has been struck by lightning: 49
    Jorlleag has been struck by lightning: 13
    Lady Nevederia has been struck by lightning: 24
    Lord Vyemm has been struck by lightning: 0
    Velketor the Sorcerer has been struck by lightning: 0
    Dozekar the Cursed has been struck by lightning: 218

    Evynd Firestorm has been struck by lightning: 49
    Agnarr the Storm Lord has been struck by lightning: 8
    Maareq the Prophet has been struck by lightning: 256
    Solusek Ro has been struck by lightning: 13
    Lord Mithaniel Marr has been struck by lightning: 36
    Jiva has been struck by lightning: 379
    The Seventh Hammer has been struck by lightning: 22
    Aerin`Dar has been struck by lightning: 4

    Guardian of Doomfire has been struck by lightning: 0
    Jaxoliz Dawneyes has been struck by lightning: 42
    Criare Sunmane has been struck by lightning: 2
    General Druav Flamesinger has been struck by lightning: 4
    Magmaton has been struck by lightning: 4
    Pyronis has been struck by lightning: 4
    Quavonis Firetail has been struck by lightning: 9
    Blazzax the Omnifiend has been struck by lightning: 9
    General Reparm has been struck by lightning: 4
    Babnoxis the Spider Queen has been struck by lightning: 36
    Arch Mage Yozanni has been struck by lightning: 15
    Krziik the Mighty has been struck by lightning: 50
    Hydrotha has been struck by lightning: 18
    War Chieftan Galronar has been struck by lightning: 3
    War Chieftan Awisano has been struck by lightning: 7
    War Chieftan Birak has been struck by lightning: 7
    Warlord Gintolaken has been struck by lightning: 18
    Xegony the Queen of Air has been struck by lightning: 9
    Avatar of Earth has been struck by lightning: 0
    Fennin Ro the Tyrant of Fire has been struck by lightning: 1
    Coirnav the Avatar of Water has been struck by lightning: 0
    Ofossaa the Enlightened has been struck by lightning: 32
    Grioihin the Wise has been struck by lightning: 19
    Tantisala Jaggedtooth has been struck by lightning: 9
    A Monsterious Mudwalker has been struck by lightning: 0
    A Perfected Warder of Earth has been struck by lightning: 2
    Derugoak Bloodwalker has been struck by lightning: 0
    Peregrin Rockskull has been struck by lightning: 2
    A Mystical Arbitor of Earth has been struck by lightning: 5
    A Rathe Councilman has been struck by lightning: 0
    Avatar of Wind has been struck by lightning: 7
    Avatar of Dust has been struck by lightning: 0
    Avatar of Smoke has been struck by lightning: 0
    Avatar of Mist has been struck by lightning: 0

    Lord Inquisitor Seru has been struck by lightning: 0
    Grieg Veneficus has been struck by lightning: 7
    Grummus has been struck by lightning: 255
    Rumblecrush has been struck by lightning: 90
    The Itraer Vius has been struck by lightning: 363
    An acidic mass has been struck by lightning: 204
    Doomshade has been struck by lightning: 87
    Shei Vinitras has been struck by lightning: 25

    This gives some idea of what was meleed and what wasn't.
     
    Last edited: Aug 30, 2018
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  20. Lenas

    Lenas I Feel Loved

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    /r/murderedbywords
     
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  21. Faults

    Faults I Feel Loved

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    I do have logs, that you have, but I wasn't super into the sweet spot. I dove into melee fast and withheld my disc often in case of weaponshield whether it was needed or not. I won't cry tears over archery but because its somewhat integral to the ranger class I understand why they are fighting so hard for something they love.
     
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  22. Linkamus

    Linkamus People Like Me

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    Torven, all I have to say if you are the man for giving this issue so much attention, *regardless* of outcome.

    Looking at cry of thunder is pretty genius. While it doesn't tell the whole story, it definitely sheds some light on at least what mobs weren't arrowable at all while in corners, or at least very hard to find the right angle, and for some / all rangers, not worth the effort.

    I think the spirit of this thread has been conflated a bit by 2 different issues / debates.

    Debate #1: Regardless of how it was on AK, should the corner bug be removed on the merit of it being simply being a bug?

    • Going off Haynar's post, there seems to be a worry that it will affect the game balance too much, as the corner bug was fixed on live sometime probably during GoD or OoW, which is a different paradigm than a server locked at PoP. Personally I think the armies of wizard / cleric boxes here has altered game balance way more than removing the wall bug ever could. However, I respect Haynar's (and other devs that agree with him) viewpoint on this.

    Debate #2: If the bug is to be left in, how close to AK behavior is it? And if it is impossible to fully replicate, which way do we lean? To lean in favor the player playing the ranger, or not?

    • As I said, Torven has obviously done some serious work trying to get to the bottom of this. I think at this point, we've given all the anecdotes that we can, and Torven (and other devs) have seemed to probably exhausted all or most of the evidence that they can from logs. One thing is for certain, and that is that corners did pose a serious issue for archery in AK. That goes without saying. So if the goal is to leave the bug in the game (see debate #1), then there needs to be SOME sort of detriment to archery when it comes to cornered mobs. Right now archery turns off completely, regardless of where the ranger is standing when he/she shoots when a mob is cornered. Without being able to replicate the bug exactly, I can't really think of any other way to do it other than perhaps makes it so cornered mobs can only be hit if rangers are able to shoot at a severe downward or upward angle at the mob (This would at least be closer to AK functionality from my memory. But again, it's just my flawed memory).
    This is me trying to be as objective as possible about the issue. Obviously my personal feeling is that the bug should burn in a dumpster fire, never to be seen again ;) .
     
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  23. Foxboxx

    Foxboxx People Like Me

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    I second eveything Linkamus just said. To Torven and all other devs for going through all of this research for us rangers, and everyone else along the way. You guys are going above and beyond, and regardless of the outcome, I am very grateful for all of the careful thought put into this.

    Going through those proc logs is definitely a clever approach. I notice some inconsistencies, like why does Arch Lich of all creatures have so many meleeing rangers and why does Cursed have any (at least while I was in Temerity on AK, it wasn't ever really cornered,) but overall it does give us a scale of how difficult each mob was to arrow. I do think seeing the procs on AL and Cursed does show how easily rangers fell into melee laziness, though.
    While most, if not all rangers used pennyrolling/basic macros to spam archery on AK, I would say very few used a second computer to spam it, or any cheats to background spam it. If something else we may boxing at the time was important to give attention to, we would just run in to melee so we could focus on that box. When I led some Shei or AL raids, I would box the MT and just leave my ranger meleeing/trying to control adds. We didn't always have the option between the two, but it was still there often enough, is an important aspect of the class to us. Archery was just higher effort and less reliable on many creatures, so many would jump into melee.

    I cannot fault you for being very skeptical, especially based on the logs you're seeing. We probably seem a bit crazy, like we're experiencing some kind of mass ranger hallucination. The best evidence we have to provide is how every AK ranger who has posted here claims to have experienced having to dart around to find the 'sweet spot,' along with other non-ranger AK players claiming to have seen us doing the same.


    What we do know is that we're worse off here on being able to use archery, both because we're confident this iteration of the corner bug is harsher, and because of the ease of bringing extra wizzy/cleric boxes resulting in guilds not having to care if they don't get that ranger archery damage either way. Both in mechanics and definitely in spirit, we rangers are not experiencing an Akkurate raiding situation. That I can say with confidence.

    I know the logs available aren't helping our case, but I hope this many rangers and non-rangers from AK feeling this is off has some meaning, and allows for a compromise. The boxing environment here makes us weaker by default on raids, and having even less access to archery than before really doubles down on that.

    Again, I thank you all for the thought and effort put into this.
     
  24. Torven

    Torven I Feel Loved

    Messages:
    2,742
    This is precisely my primary concern. The other devs are more concerned with mimicking AK, while I'm much more in favor of fixing bugs than they are. I'm in favor of bumping up monk AC because monks are probably the weakest class in our era. (and their AC status was rather short lived) I'm not in favor of allowing unrestricted archery because it drastically alters the DPS class balance. Frankly, (and I certainly cannot prove this in any way) I'm of the belief that Sony didn't nerf archery because of the corner bug.

    Consider the following:

    * In the future, the server will be flooded with earth bows and every ranger with plat will have one.
    * Everybody now has broadband, 60+ FPS clients, and a device or software to automate ranged attacks to minimize atk delays.
    * Archery range > Time god AoE radius and many other raid boss AoEs if not practically all of them.
    * Your pet Ranger class is going to have a lot of company when people start re-rolling rangers instead of wizards and then you'll lose much of your 'nobody plays us' feel and you'll have to compete for loot against the min/maxer crowd.
    * Imagine your guild having to AFK for an hour to wait for discs to make your second attempt at the roadblocking boss. Min/maxers do this kind of thing to themselves instead of settling for slightly worse DPS.
    * If we allow concessions, it's a lot more painful to reverse the decision later if it turns out badly-- even if it's just a partial reversal.

    Adding hate to archery results in a couple of problems. One, if I added enough hate that makes you have to jolt as much as a wizard, then trueshot is going to be rather useless unless your tank clicks a lot of inventory. And two, due to the way physical hate is done, archery is going to do a ton of hate-per-damage on high AC bosses if I want to make hate meaningful on PoP bosses. (most of which have very low AC) It's also very unlike AK or even Live.
     
    pharmakos likes this.
  25. echofinder

    echofinder Member

    Messages:
    90
    I'm not playing a ranger now but going with no restriction to Ranger DPS would freeze the fondness I have of my last life as a Ranger on a dead and buried server rather than keeping it alive here. I think AL'kabor should be copied to the greatest extent possible, I never played elsewhere so I have no other frame of reference.

    I loved the class and still do, I never felt shorted. Of course you could hit a lot of raid targets enough that finding that spot was part of the deal. I always felt it went with my role play nature, rangers to me were meant for precision shots , you cant bring a bow to all levels of an encounter, often you have to pack it up and move to melee. I have fond memories of Stamm in Pathfinders tanking mobs that would have been no challenge for other guilds but for us he made sure to keep them off walls so the maybe 3 rangers we did have could turn the tide with bow DPS. To me over time With AA's nuke crits even that felt like decent DPS to me when "reduced" to the level of a warrior welding those clumsy blades. I hate to think that now you can role a ranger and just hit auto attack and endlessly fire? I mean I can't think of another class who transforms as fully and interestingly as a ranger. you become a new class through the EQ and AM3 Process. When you emerge from that you have earned it. Add in the instant invis , even on the run , and all the ways that can aid gameplay, saving some wipes come to memory with WS saved up it just seems like removing the tradeoff of not always being able to hit a raid target would remove that feeling of playing your class up hill through the snow that makes a ranger a ranger.

    How are arrows behaving with being obstructed by other people or pets as it did on Al'kabor?
     
  26. Foxboxx

    Foxboxx People Like Me

    Messages:
    218
    Based on the rangers I've talked, it seems we are in complete agreement in accepting archery macros/pennyrolling being disallowed once more if it means archery can become of use for us once again. We understand the fear of ranger boxing becoming a problem, and even though I believe wizzys will stay the box of choice, alleviating that fear is something we seem to all be okay with. Making rangers a class that people genuinely have to main and focus on in order to deal their damage is fine with us ranger advocates, because we otherwise like our class enough to accept that. I mostly singleboxed on AK, and mostly going back to that is fine by me.

    I don't know how hard to enforce that would be, but based only on how quickly I was spotted using a macro for archery before we went down that discussion road, I hope it is easy to catch. Visually, it is generally pretty obvious when rangers are macroing their archery, anyway. We're pretty twitchy and moving about when just manually pressing the button =P.

    On the DPS side of things, it looked like in your logs that Rogues were averaging double ranger DPS, while monks and wizzys seem to stay 50 to 60DPS ahead (Fennin being the major exception as no one can reasonably melee on him, of course). The amount of non-TSed dps by rangers seemed consistent with previously posted AK bow parses, and I don't believe should have any affect on server balance, especially if macroing is disallowed once more.

    I've had conversations with a decent amount of ranger mains about this over the past week, and we seem to have no real interest in having a second computer on the side just to macro our archery. We like focusing on our class, and being ready to react to changing situations. Outside of raids, we enjoy the variety our class offers, being a jack of all trades, master of none. Inside of raids, that variety doesn't mean a lot, and we've become deadweight/light warriors for the most part. I hope disallowing macros can possibly allow that to change.

    We don't have that spot here, and that's the main part of what we feel is off about our class right now. We just are having trouble finding logs to prove it, even though there hasn't been a ranger posting here who doesn't remember it, along with plenty of non-rangers. If it was possibly to replicate that, we would be perfectly fine with it. We just feel having archery 0% of the time on a corner is far less Akkurate than having it 100% of the time.

    Only mobs can block arrows at the moment. We're missing both the 'sweet spot' angle (it has been strangely hard to find proof) and the having to dodge around other players/mounts/pets part.
     
  27. Linkamus

    Linkamus People Like Me

    Messages:
    413
    I'd be perfectly happy if you took away the ability for us to macro archery AND introduce proper hate generation based on damage done. You say trueshot would be worthless. I'd say let us deal with that problem :). Between jolt and waiting for the boss to be at 50% or w/e, I'm sure we can manage. And if we get summoned and die, we get summoned and die. More ranger joke source material for Spaide!

    No macroing allowed and forcing us to jolt will make sure that ranger box armies are VERY impractical. Not to mention, us having to jolt will cut down on our overall DPS in a fight, and introduce proper risk.
     
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  28. Lenas

    Lenas I Feel Loved

    Messages:
    2,968
    Yes but the problem there is inaccuracy which others on staff are not cool with even if Tor could figure out an appropriate hate scaling method which seems unlikely.
     
    Last edited: Aug 31, 2018
  29. Linkamus

    Linkamus People Like Me

    Messages:
    413
    True. I guess I would then appeal to the fact that other bugs on the server have been fixed that make TAKP different from AK. Ultimately though that's a subjective call from devs.
     
  30. Foxboxx

    Foxboxx People Like Me

    Messages:
    218
    Ultimately we just hope to find a happy middle-ground. Rangers already know we're different than what we were on AK. We just had another old AK ranger (Echofinder) pop in and mention how he used to always search for that same archery spot while just speaking of his general experiences as an AK ranger.

    I am pretty confident we're not all just experiencing a mass hallucination at this point =P.
     
    Last edited: Aug 31, 2018