Poll 2 of 2 Devs are curious.

Discussion in 'General Discussion' started by Speedz, May 9, 2017.

?

Box limits

  1. Leave alone

  2. 2

  3. 6

  4. unlimited

Results are only viewable after voting.
  1. Tryfan

    Tryfan People Like Me

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    420
    P99's experience disagrees with Dane. Even with literally no mobs ever up few left and those who did were replaced by new people. Once popularity hits a certain point the problem doesnt solve itself.

    There is another way besides instancing if mob supply became a problem and that is decreasing spawn time AND implementing lockout timers (preferably based on the master account). It is important that these go *together*. If KT spawned twice a week instead of once, but you could only get him the one time, then immediately you can support twice as many raiders... as long as you're okay with twice as much loot coming into game. Its a option.
     
  2. Dane

    Dane People Like Me

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    Actually, P99 is a perfect example of supply and demand. People leave P99 every day.

    I played on P99 for about 6 months after AK was sunset. I loved the server while leveling, but left in a hurry once I got to the endgame and saw the toxic raid scene. A lot of people are turned off by poopsocking and don't realize how bad it is until they reach endgame. This is exactly the same thing I referenced. A shortage of mobs will turn people off. Not everyone of course, but enough people that it balances out with the incoming new players. This is the saturation point.

    If you look at p99's online numbers the past few years, it's constantly hovered around 1000. Sure, there has been some fluctuation and variance just like any market, but not a whole bunch. Supply and demand.
     
  3. Tryfan

    Tryfan People Like Me

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    What you are missing is it stabilized above, FAR above, your 'saturation point'. The problem never solved itself. The raid scene never stopped being toxic, even to this day. That is hardly the optimal solution.

    P99 is an example of supply and demand *failing* to solve the issue of overpopulation. Not enough people leave and too many replace the ones that do.
     
    Last edited: May 10, 2017
  4. Dane

    Dane People Like Me

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    I'm not missing anything. Stabilization and saturation are two different market concepts. P99 is saturated, there is no doubt about that. But it's also stable (from a market perspective). It's not really growing or shrinking. This will happen naturally if you allow it, which the p99 devs have. The p99 devs' goal is to have a popular server, and they have succeeded.

    My entire point was that our devs need to figure out at what point they want to affect the TAKP market, if at all. They need to figure out what their arbitrary saturation point is so that the server will remain healthy. But if they don't, there will eventually be a natural saturation point just like p99. Otherwise, you'd see p99 growing infinitely. Which it has not.

    We have rotations here on TAKP so you don't have the toxicity of poopsocking raid content. But if I'm only able to raid once a month because the content is being rotated between 12 guilds, I'm probably going to find something else to do with my time. How to stop that from happening is something for the devs to consider.
     
  5. Speedz

    Speedz Administrator Staff Member

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    2,469
    Spawn times and number of mobs will never change here. It will be as AK like as possible. We have zero intentions to customize content.
     
  6. sowislifesowislove

    sowislifesowislove People Like Me

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    What about instancing?
     
  7. benoeb

    benoeb People Like Me

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    Outside of PoTime which I do not know if it was instanced on AK, no other zone will be instanced. They weren't on AK.
     
    Dane likes this.
  8. sowislifesowislove

    sowislifesowislove People Like Me

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    854
    Right. I know that. But we're talking a lot of hypothetical population problems in this thread and I'm just curious on their take.
     
  9. Speedz

    Speedz Administrator Staff Member

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    Instancing would be really up to cavedude and Haynar. But I am sure they don't wish to have that in either.
     
  10. Fadetree

    Fadetree People Like Me

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    Right but that number (its actually more like 1300ish) produces extreme unpleasantness in the end and even some of the medium game.

    If you can continue to expend the time to enforce rotations, then dandy. But think about, say 15 guilds, and say 40 or so raid targets. It gets complicated fast and starts burning up huge amounts of time. You have to have people watching and enforcing.
     
    Last edited: May 10, 2017
  11. Tryfan

    Tryfan People Like Me

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    420
    Dane, you originally said supply and demand would stabilize the population at the saturarion point. This is the issue. It didnt. Yes, it stabilized. But that stabilization came at a level that isnt viable for good raiding content fun. That means people didnt quit when supply ran out, or at least not enough did.

    Therefore, you cannot depend of supply and demand solving the issue of an overpopulated end game. The p99 experience shows it simply doesnt work. Something else must be in play.
     
  12. Bum

    Bum I Feel Loved

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    I have all of the supply and you demand it all.
     
    Oiwon and Dane like this.
  13. Dane

    Dane People Like Me

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    Okay, lack of reading comprehension has forced me out of this conversation. I never once used the word "stabilize" until you did. And once I did, it was from a pure numbers/market viewpoint. Maybe you didn't take economics. Maybe I'm just being unclear. But stabilization != health. A server can be stable from a pure numbers perspective, and it can also be toxic and not fun.

    /exits stage left
     
    Last edited: May 10, 2017
  14. Tryfan

    Tryfan People Like Me

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    420
    It's not a lack of reading comprehension, Dane, it's you forgetting what you actually said. No, you didn't use the word "stabilize"... but that is what you were describing, NOT the saturation point. It's right here:

    The problem with your theory is all here. You linked supply and demand to p99's stable population ("enough people that it balances out with the incoming new players. This is the saturation point."). But that's not what happened. The supply wasn't enough . It was adequate for far, far below p99's population. As others have said, I don't think you can get over 500 without the pinch becoming unbearable and creating toxicity. That is almost certainly the real saturation point as far as pixel income is concerned right there. P99 did not stabilize according to supply and demand or the saturation point. It just didn't. Frankly, I think the only reason it is stopped where it is is there is only so many people interested in an EQ emu nowadays. It definitely did NOT stop because it is at the pixel saturation point.

    What's happening is a lag time between when people get disgruntled with the supply and when they actually quit, and that lag time is *considerable*. Years. That's why the supply and demand theory fails. It's not just "economics". People stick around when they shouldn't, according to supply and demand, because of other reasons. They like their guild. They are addicted. They refuse to admit the truth. Whatever! The point is, they are still there, raiding, creating more of a logjam.

    If everyone quit when they stopped getting pixels - your economic theory in action - then your system would work. They just don't, though, not any time soon at least, so we can't depend on that.

    I am sorry if you took my posts as negative toned, I was on my phone and maybe I wasn't giving as much context as I should have, like quoting precisely what I was referring to.
     
  15. Haynar

    Haynar Administrator

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    3,637
    Arguing over p99's population. Thats funny.

    What everyone forgets. EQ was not designed or intended, for everyone to have all BiS gear.

    And the people who demand that, make it toxic where ever they go.
     
    sowislifesowislove likes this.
  16. jcmtg

    jcmtg New Member

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    70
    This is what Sony did in the case of their other servers, is it not? They just roll up another one and name it after a god. And offer free, perma-transfers, into it but not out of it.

    Why hasn't p99 done the same? Afraid of... what? Must be a technical issue?

    If we get a pvp-TAKP server plz no 6-boxing. 6 box Wizard gank squads.
     
  17. Tryfan

    Tryfan People Like Me

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    420
    The vast majority of the people who would go to the trouble to play a nearly twenty year old game on an emu server are those who are interested in EQ to its fullest, including raiding. The few who aren't, are playing for a nostalgia trip and don't stick around. If one designs a server without taking this into account, they are simply ignoring the reality of who's going to be playing, but reality doesn't care about intentions. It's going to be reality regardless and those people will be there. Takp doesn't have to face the choices yet because we aren't at Dane's 'saturation point', there's still enough content for everyone who wants it, more or less. But p99 did face that choice. Their choice was to do nothing to alleviate the pressure and enforce non-classic mechanics to maintain "competition". That was not the only option.

    It will be interesting to see what option you will choose if the day ever comes. I kinda hope it doesn't, this population level seems pretty good to me. Maybe a LITTLE low, but not by much.

    Well here's the thing. P99's single boxing requires a fairly healthy population to maintain the leveling up phase. You WANT those hundreds of people there looking for groups, making groups, filling up the zones, so everyone who wants a group can find one (more or less).

    But THAT level of population is far beyond what Velious level content can handle at endgame. All those groups of all those people hit 55+ and want to go hit up KT and statue and NToV etc.

    Uh oh.

    So how do you make a server where you have lots of people leveling but not have lots of people raiding, or at least have enough raid content to satisfy all those people done leveling? Certainly p99's solution wasn't very good. Is it even possible? Gotta be a better way anyways.
     
    Last edited: May 10, 2017
  18. Locnar

    Locnar Member

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    34
    THIS should be the next dev curiosity poll, pvp-TAKP. With Agnarr stepping on the toes of old EQmac day by day (pop locked, now using old classic models, etc) This would be a way to help differentiate this product from Agnarr.
     
  19. Lenas

    Lenas I Feel Loved

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    2,968
    Unless they decide not to release LoY and LDoN on Agnarr, along with removing modern conveniences, our servers will never be anything alike.
     
    gardnerjens and lurari like this.
  20. Fadetree

    Fadetree People Like Me

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    Pfft they can go back in time all they like, I will never play on their servers.
     
  21. Kagatob

    Kagatob People Like Me

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    Agnarr has real money auction house, instancing (via load balancing) for *every* zone and a bunch of other ridiculous crap that doesn't belong in that era.
    Personally I'd kill for LoY.
     
    Last edited: May 11, 2017
    Mokli and lurari like this.
  22. Haynar

    Haynar Administrator

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    3,637
    I think LoY would be awesome too.
     
    Kagatob, lurari, Draeko and 1 other person like this.
  23. Lenas

    Lenas I Feel Loved

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    Enjoy Agnarr :p
     
    gardnerjens likes this.
  24. Haynar

    Haynar Administrator

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    3,637
    I will. Can't decide if I will 2 or 3 box.
     
    Volkmeer likes this.
  25. sowislifesowislove

    sowislifesowislove People Like Me

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    What was so great about LoY? I can't remember shit except instance zones for some groups
     
  26. Darchon

    Darchon I Feel Loved

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    LoY had 0 instances zones. You're thinking LDoN.

    LoY had several benefits. A few upgrades Tradeskill lines (new Tailoring combines up to around 220) with new Robes that had useful focus effects you could make, spell research for spells 51-60, and a few other things.

    Also it added a few spells received via quests. Each class got 2~ spells one in the 40ish level area and one in the 50ish level area. Of the notables, there was a 40ish version of Torpor for Shamans, and priests got single target (cleric/Druid) cure spells to cure both disease and poison spells with one cast. Because Shamans are OP they got the same power cure but for an entire group. The addition of these cures makes certain encounters far easier. Babnoxis in PoFire or Bertox in PoTime would take 4 casts of Counteract XXX to cure (which is a Druids highest cure line currently). But with Pure Blood 2 casts get it off.

    Added bard song window. Which pushes the AE Chorus/Resist songs into their own window and HoTs/DAs. Allows much greater flexibility of your 15 Buff slots on a raid. In PoTime every event we would always go over the max # of buffs allowed for each encounter due to having to allot slots for AE Chorus, Resists, 1-3 MGB HoTs and whatever Detrimental AEs you were likely to have. Some encounters this number was only 9 other buffs, which evaporates quickly for casters who have sometimes 4-5 buffs for mana regen only.

    8 Bank Slots + 2 Shared Bank slots

    Charm Slot with the PoP charm was an additional 100 HP/Mana 10 sv All 10 AC item for anyone time flagged basically. Plus 7 free AAs for Story telling.
     
    sowislifesowislove likes this.
  27. Haynar

    Haynar Administrator

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    3,637
    + Guild Management tool. iirc
     
  28. Elroz

    Elroz I Feel Loved Staff Member

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    Illusion potions!
     
  29. Dane

    Dane People Like Me

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    + maps

    The biggest negative feature of LoY is frogloks. What a terrible race.
     
  30. Haynar

    Haynar Administrator

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    3,637
    Armor Dyes